beachguy Posted March 9, 2004 Share Posted March 9, 2004 Here's a novel question. What kind of idiot pays to receive specialized emails, then reports those emails as spam? What kind of tort liabilities might be incured in blocking an IP that soley serves paid customers? Wouldn't that be considered interfering with legitimate business transactions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Betsy Posted March 9, 2004 Share Posted March 9, 2004 There are lots of kinds of idiots in this world. Some idiots ask questions that are so vague that one wonders if they are rhetorical. Seriously, there must be more than one customer reporting spam in order to be on the spamcop bl. If that is so, perhaps your unsubscribe is broken? The other possibility is that somehow you have hit a spamtrap. Since you didn't give an IP address, those are my only two guesses. As far as legal possibilities, there is no legal obligation for any mail server to accept all email. If your customer is not satisfied with the way his ISP is handling his email, then he can use another email system. Miss Betsy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turetzsr Posted March 9, 2004 Share Posted March 9, 2004 Hi, beachguy! Here's a novel question. What kind of idiot pays to receive specialized emails, then reports those emails as spam? ...This must also be a rhetorical question, since it answers itself. Note that SpamCop.net does not permit this (Rules). What kind of tort liabilities might be incured in blocking an IP that soley serves paid customers? Wouldn't that be considered interfering with legitimate business transactions? ...E-mail is generally not considered to be a "guaranteed delivery" mechanism. Also, server administrators may refuse incoming traffic for any reason, at least in the U.S. (47 USC 230). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beachguy Posted March 9, 2004 Author Share Posted March 9, 2004 Not sure what's so vague, and didn't mean to be rhetorical. I'm seriously interested in the mindset of someone who pays to receive emails then report that which they paid to receive as spam. It's not like they're being harvested, or their email address obtained by dubious methods.... Someone pays $80/yr to receive specialized emails regarding something that they evidently have a strong enough interest in to spend $80/year. Fair enough, right? So, out of, let's say, 650k people who paid for and receive the same type of email, 20 of them decide to report the very email that they're paying for a total of 30 times over four months. Just seems to make more sense to me to not pay $80/year for emails that they select to report as spam anyway. After all, not only would they save $80/yr, they wouldn't get the emails because you have to pay to get those emails.... Unsubscribe = cancel the service. Then again, 10% of the population believes that Elvis is still alive.... I'm not trying to be rhetorical, just truly interested in what drives that sort of thought process, and thought someone here may have experienced this sort of thing and may have a little insight that they could share. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevenUnderwood Posted March 9, 2004 Share Posted March 9, 2004 Perhaps, someone signed up for your list then changed their email address while they forgot about your list. Another person gets this address and receives this email which they did not request and rightly reports it. Without an IP address to look at any proof, we are all simply guessing here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beachguy Posted March 9, 2004 Author Share Posted March 9, 2004 Thanks, Steve. That seems a fair and reasonable assesment, and a logical possibility. I appreciate your input. I'm not trying to be evasive RE: IP, it just doesn't really matter. As I'd mentioned, out of 650k paid subscribers, each receiving this email monthly, 30 complaints by 20 people over four months isn't much to worry about.... Thanks again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Betsy Posted March 9, 2004 Share Posted March 9, 2004 Another possibility is that every once in while in amongst 100 or so spam an email they want gets overlooked and forwarded to spamcop. If you really want to know why you can send an email to the report # address and ask. Do it nicely and if it is a mistake, you will probably get an apology and maybe some information on why they missed it (which might be helpful to you) or that they had never subscribed. I am not technically fluent in confirmed subscription practices, but IIRC, if you are using confirmed subscriptions you should be able to take that name off the list. Though if it is someone who just overlooked an email, s/he might get mad if they don't get it the next time. Miss Betsy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loex Posted March 9, 2004 Share Posted March 9, 2004 I wonder why most messageboards/forums do not have an unsubscribe option. I believe this one doesn't have any either. You have to email an admin and ask (beg ) him of her to delete your registration. So if they are mailed via a board this could led to overkill spamreports? And before you know it you -as a board owner- are blacklisted? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beachguy Posted March 9, 2004 Author Share Posted March 9, 2004 Thanks for your input, Betsy! Unlike some "subscription" services, this is one in where, "you don't get the email until I get the money", so chances of someone mistakenly subscribing are slim to none. You did hit on another point, and that is, out of 100-or-so spams, sometimes legitimate emails are mistaken as spam and reported accordingly. And I'd think it safe to say, that we've probably all done that a time or two. And you're right, there are those, mostly AOL users, who report as spam, then get all upset when they don't receive their emails. For those, I make them write stating that they mistakenly reported legitimate email that they pay to receive, and to please remove any blocks on their email address that would keep them from receiving the emails. It often helps to view things from a different perspective. Thanks to you all for your input! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loafman Posted March 9, 2004 Share Posted March 9, 2004 Here's a novel question. What kind of idiot pays to receive specialized emails, then reports those emails as spam? Possibly someone (actually at least two somebody's) that have paid for the list, want off, and found the unsubscribe link not working. What kind of tort liabilities might be incured in blocking an IP that soley serves paid customers? Wouldn't that be considered interfering with legitimate business transactions? Absolutely none. As postmaster, I own the mail server. If my users wanted, I could block all emails with the word the in the third line of the body and there would not be a thing you or anyone could do about it. Now, as to your problem... what was the error message in question? Especially, what was the IP of the email server that sent the message that caused the error message? ...Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beachguy Posted March 9, 2004 Author Share Posted March 9, 2004 I wonder why most messageboards/forums do not have an unsubscribe option. I believe this one doesn't have any either. You have to email an admin and ask (beg ) him of her to delete your registration. So if they are mailed via a board this could led to overkill spamreports? And before you know it you -as a board owner- are blacklisted? Well, this isn't the same sort of situation. People actually pay to receive these emails, and if they don't pay, they don't get. Unsubscribe = cancel the membership. Those are the terms and they are clearly stated in advance and before the transaction takes place. The subscriber has a 30-day period in which to cancel membership and receive a full refund. There is no such thing as a pro-rated refund - again, fully disclosed terms in advance of the transaction. Although it's more rare than it used to be, I've actually had people request their username or password, and when they receive it only two minutes later, all of a sudden, it's spam.... All in all, 30 complaints from 20 people out of 2.6mm emails sent over 4 months isn't too bad. And, I think that from some of the feedback that I've received here today, I might be able to cut those complaints in half! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Betsy Posted March 9, 2004 Share Posted March 9, 2004 That's a pretty good record! Congratulations! Even if they pay in order to receive, it would probably be worth your time to use the confirmed subscription tokens and to provide an unsubscribe with every mailing. What if someone dies and their spouse keeps the email address and doesn't want the newsletter? Miss Betsy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey Posted March 9, 2004 Share Posted March 9, 2004 As I'd mentioned, out of 650k paid subscribers, each receiving this email monthly... 650,000 subscribers X $80 = $52 Million per year. That will buy a lot of technical support! Not trying to be an ass, the numbers just caught my attention. Seriously, for that kind of money, you could buy your own servers and give all your customers their own accounts so you could control your own destiny. As for morons who report their own incoming newsletters, I would agree with the poster who surmised it was an accident. Someone wasn't paying attention to the details..... It got swept up with all the other spams and someone didn't look close enough. Have you tried running your newsletters through SpamAssassin or K9 or the others to see how they score? Maybe someone was trusting their filters (or misconfigured them) and you got caught in the undertow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beachguy Posted March 9, 2004 Author Share Posted March 9, 2004 That's a pretty good record! Congratulations! Even if they pay in order to receive, it would probably be worth your time to use the confirmed subscription tokens and to provide an unsubscribe with every mailing. What if someone dies and their spouse keeps the email address and doesn't want the newsletter? Miss Betsy Thanks, Betsy! And you're right, come to think of it, I have had an instance that was very much as you described. Someone had died, and their spouse kept the email address to inform his online friends. I'll look into adding some sort of unsubscribe method that will cancel membership in the body of the email, then maybe do something like a double opt-out to confirm that they really want to cancel the service. Thanks again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beachguy Posted March 9, 2004 Author Share Posted March 9, 2004 As I'd mentioned, out of 650k paid subscribers, each receiving this email monthly... 650,000 subscribers X $80 = $52 Million per year. That will buy a lot of technical support! Not trying to be an ass, the numbers just caught my attention. Seriously, for that kind of money, you could buy your own servers and give all your customers their own accounts so you could control your own destiny. As for morons who report their own incoming newsletters, I would agree with the poster who surmised it was an accident. Someone wasn't paying attention to the details..... It got swept up with all the other spams and someone didn't look close enough. Have you tried running your newsletters through SpamAssassin or K9 or the others to see how they score? Maybe someone was trusting their filters (or misconfigured them) and you got caught in the undertow. Yeah, it ain't chump change.... I do run through SpamAssassin, and usually rank under 5.0. Thanks for your input, Mikey! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlyn Posted March 9, 2004 Share Posted March 9, 2004 Here's a novel question. What kind of idiot pays to receive specialized emails, then reports those emails as spam? Maybe someone who did not pay or request it. As for the numbers I only know of a half dozen paid lists at that high of a price. The people that run thoses lists would surely not come in here asking about "tort liabilities". No offense but I find the story hard to believe. Not about someone accidently reporting it as spam just the numbers about the paid email. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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