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#1 jeje68

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Posted 03 November 2009 - 05:53 AM

Many orange-wanadoo customers complain that they're blocked by Spamcop.
When examining the headers, I can't find any server IP.
mwinf2201.orange.fr has no reverse DNS...

What can we do about it ?

Here's an example :
Return-Path: <>
Received: from mwinf2201.orange.fr (mwinf2201.orange.fr)
by mwinb7404 (SMTP Server) with LMTP; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 14:10:17 +0100
X-Sieve: Server Sieve 2.2
X-Bcc: "loc: requested length %ld"
Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1])
by mwinf2201.orange.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id B121C1C00096
for <o22000000000000000115105016[at]back74-mail02-02.me-wanadoo.net>; Mon, 2 Nov 2009 14:10:17 +0100 (CET)
Received: by mwinf2201.orange.fr (SMTP Server)
id 9DFC01C0009E; Mon, 2 Nov 2009 14:10:17 +0100 (CET)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 14:10:17 +0100 (CET)
X-ME-UUID: 20091102131017381.5D0751C00096[at]mwinf2201.orange.fr
From: MAILER-DAEMON[at]orange.fr (Mail Delivery System)
Subject: Undelivered Mail Returned to Sender
To: (masked)
Auto-Submitted: auto-replied
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/report; report-type=delivery-status;
boundary="7DED71C00096.1257167417/orange.fr"
Message-Id: <20091102131017.9DFC01C0009E[at]mwinf2201.orange.fr>
X-me-spamlevel: not-spam
X-me-spamrating: 38.400002
X-me-spamcause: OK, (-40)(0000)gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrvdekiedrudeiucetggdotefuucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuoffgnecuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecutehtthgrtghhuchhvggruggvrhculddqhedtmdenufhprghmjfgvrgguvghrhfhivghlugcujfgvrgguvghrucfutghorhhinhhgucdluddtmd


This is the mail system at host mwinf2201.orange.fr.

I'm sorry to have to inform you that your message could not
be delivered to one or more recipients. It's attached below.

For further assistance, please send mail to postmaster.

If you do so, please include this problem report. You can
delete your own text from the attached returned message.

The mail system

<masked>: host smtp.calixo.net[masked] said: 553 sorry, your
mailserver is rejected by see http://spamcop.net (in reply to MAIL FROM
command)

#2 Derek T

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Posted 03 November 2009 - 06:27 AM

Many orange-wanadoo customers complain that they're blocked by Spamcop.
When examining the headers, I can't find any server IP.
mwinf2201.orange.fr has no reverse DNS...

What can we do about it ?

According to Senderbase that domain maps to 63 smtp servers. Without the specific IP there is very little any of us can do. The rejection message is malformed (in that it should contain the IP). Do you have another example from a different recipient, perhaps?
hth
Derek T

Not a SpamCop employee, just a happy customer!

#3 jeje68

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Posted 03 November 2009 - 06:39 AM

According to Senderbase that domain maps to 63 smtp servers. Without the specific IP there is very little any of us can do. The rejection message is malformed (in that it should contain the IP). Do you have another example from a different recipient, perhaps?

That's my problem. Every mailer-daemon I get does not contain the sender ip. Maybe because the orange webmail is a bit strange...

Where can I find the list of the 63 smtp servers ?

#4 Telarin

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Posted 03 November 2009 - 09:01 AM

The rejection message is generated by the receiving server and would have nothing to do with the orange-wanadoo system setup. However, even if you know the IP address, there is going to be little to nothing you as a user can do about it. This is something that their mail system management team would have to address to solve. The fact that there is a spamcop listing for some of their servers indicates either they have a major configuration problem causing their SMTP servers to send backscatter, they have a customer sending a large volume of spam through their SMTP servers, or they have a security breach allowing a spammer outside their network to relay through their SMTP servers. Either way, it is a problem that their support will have to resolve in order to get delisted.
Will Russell, MCP
IT Specialist
Galveston Insurance Associates

#5 Farelf

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Posted 03 November 2009 - 10:41 AM

...The fact that there is a spamcop listing for some of their servers indicates either they have a major configuration problem causing their SMTP servers to send backscatter, they have a customer sending a large volume of spam through their SMTP servers, or they have a security breach allowing a spammer outside their network to relay through their SMTP servers. Either way, it is a problem that their support will have to resolve in order to get delisted.

I agree with those comments. Some of the IP addresses that have been in the SCbl recently:

193.252.23.25, 193.252.23.26, 193.252.22.118, 193.252.23.120, 193.252.22.121, 193.252.22.128, 193.252.22.151, 193.252.22.152, 193.252.22.159, 193.252.23.171, 193.252.22.173, 193.252.22.190, 193.252.22.191, 193.252.22.192, 193.252.23.196, 193.252.23.197, 193.252.23.198, 193.252.23.199

(SenderBase -> bl.spamcop.net)

It looks to me like no more than 2 or 3 of these are listed at any given time - I suppose it could be a type of spammer 'snowshoe' operation. Typically abuse[at]orange.fr would have been receiving reports throughout but probably not a great number of them, it seems.
Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose

#6 Wazoo

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Posted 03 November 2009 - 03:19 PM

That's my problem. Every mailer-daemon I get does not contain the sender ip. Maybe because the orange webmail is a bit strange...

In your initial post, the dialog included the phrase It's attached below. The outgoing server involved should be within those headers (although admitting that there's a chance that some assumptions may be wrong.) Another way to troubleshoot this is to try again, but include a CC: address to another account elsewhere, say a Yahoo or HotMail account and see if it gets there ... use that e-mail to identify the outgoing server. Then someone could take a look at the specific that may be available on that server.

Where can I find the list of the 63 smtp servers ?

http://www.senderbas...tring=orange.fr

As Telarin states, there isn't much you can do directly to "fix" the immediate problem beyond complaining to your ISP/Host and/or using another e-mail provider in the interim. However, identifying the outgoing server involved may help in developing a better complaint.

#7 jeje68

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Posted 04 November 2009 - 04:39 AM

Thanks for your answers.

#8 PierreT

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Posted 23 November 2009 - 11:48 AM

Hi My e-mails are often blocked when sending to my customers and providers abroad. Here is a delivery report: Reporting-MTA: dns; orange.fr X-SMTP-Server-Queue-ID: 8861C15000256 X-SMTP-Server-Sender: rfc822; thebaud.pierre[at]wanadoo.fr Arrival-Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 16:07:48 +0100 (CET) Final-Recipient: rfc822; balderav[at]wolstenholme.co.uk Action: failed Status: 5.7.0 Remote-MTA: dns; mailhost.wolstenholme.co.uk Diagnostic-Code: smtp; 550 5.7.0 Your server IP address is in the SpamCop database, bye It's very inconvenient for business. What can I do about it?

#9 petzl

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Posted 23 November 2009 - 08:58 PM


It's very inconvenient for business. What can I do about it?

Sounds like orange.fr are incompetent and don't care (dump them)
Never automatically accept an email address from a provider they mainly just want to milk bank accounts
I find Gmail offer competent email service
and it's free?
www gmail com

#10 Farelf

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Posted 23 November 2009 - 11:19 PM

...It's very inconvenient for business. What can I do about it?

Sadly much of what petzl has said is true. While the rejection message you received omits the critical information of the IP address of the rejected server it seems it was assuredly an orange.fr SMTP/mail server. Orange.fr has managed to get several of their smtp servers listed. A partial list, showing 2 listed (at this instant):

http://www.senderbas...g=193.252.22.92 and
http://www.senderbas...ers=domain#page

Those two presently listed:

http://www.spamcop.n...p=193.252.23.25
http://www.spamcop.n...=193.252.23.196

... which display presently mentions 'Other hosts in this "neighborhood" with spam reports':

193.252.22.31 193.252.22.118 193.252.22.121 193.252.22.128 193.252.22.151 193.252.22.152 193.252.22.159 193.252.22.173 193.252.22.190 193.252.22.191 193.252.22.192 193.252.23.25 193.252.23.26 193.252.23.120 193.252.23.171 193.252.23.196 193.252.23.197 193.252.23.198 193.252.23.199

Another partial list of servers is in the clear right now:

http://www.senderbas...ing=80.12.242.9

Checking the list of IP addresses with spam reports (just the first line) confirms they are all SMTP servers for domains orange.fr, orange.net, and freeserve.com. As distinct from dynamic IPs sending direct to the internet, which is a different proposition.

It is not unusual for a network's SMTP servers to sometimes be listed but it is of concern when there is a succession of them rotating through the reports. Assuredly there are many of them to control but still it does not speak well of the diligence of orange.fr in managing their resources.

Possibly you are 'unlucky' in sending mail through orange and occasionally having the transaction routed through one of the few of their servers listed at any one time (and then having it go to a network which uses this BL). But it means you can never have even the normal level of assurance (which is anyway less than perfect) of your mail getting through. And not all receiving networks will give you the courtesy of a non delivery notice, some just delete silently.

If your mail is for business you might have better assurance by having your own domain and mail exchange. But that is possibly a large step for you (and inconvenient with the change of mail address but at least you use resources under your direct control and responsibility - IF orange will permit it, including use of the SMTP port). All you can do in the present circumstance is make sure orange.fr know of your problems (they may not always know or be concerned enough). Perhaps they can route your mail differently but I don't see how that might be possible.

A solution, as the previous poster suggests, is to find a better service provider. But, again this may be inconvenient. Perhaps ptezl can expand on his frequently-stated "Never automatically accept an email address from a provider ..." I am unsure of the relevance to this case but it could have some bearing on the convenience factor in changing providers?

Not much comfort for you, I am afraid. Networks are sick of spam and their present solutions are at times inconvenient for all of us. Unfortunately this may be 'asymmetric', the spammers seem to suffer less than we, or at least they merely increase their efforts to compensate for the blockage of their spew.
Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose

#11 Lking

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Posted 24 November 2009 - 10:00 AM

Never automatically accept an email address from a provider they mainly just want to milk bank accounts
I find Gmail offer competent email service and it's free?



I don't know if that is the answer. Like my grandmother said, 'Never say never.' I would think it may depend on how transitory you are. I have had the same ISP and email addresses for ~15 years. If this email is for business, there are those that question the professional look of a gmail, live, q or other free, throwaway email addresses. To me an email addy like, expert[at]gmail.com, says 'I may not be here tomorrow, but buy from me!'

As Farelf suggest, your own domain would be nice. It is portable. If you need to change ISP your address doesn't change just the IP addy, which most people never see.

Although I have no first-hand experience with the problem, there are those that suggest separating hosting a domain and registration, using different companies for each function. I have hear reports of people having trouble moving their domain when one group has that much control. Just antidotal.
Lou

Say what you will about Sisyphus. He always has work.

#12 petzl

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Posted 09 January 2010 - 12:49 AM

I don't know if that is the answer. Like my grandmother said, 'Never say never.' I would think it may depend on how transitory you are. I have had the same ISP and email addresses for ~15 years. If this email is for business, there are those that question the professional look of a gmail, live, q or other free, throwaway email addresses. To me an email addy like, expert[at]gmail.com, says 'I may not be here tomorrow, but buy from me!'

As Farelf suggest, your own domain would be nice. It is portable. If you need to change ISP your address doesn't change just the IP addy, which most people never see.

Although I have no first-hand experience with the problem, there are those that suggest separating hosting a domain and registration, using different companies for each function. I have hear reports of people having trouble moving their domain when one group has that much control. Just antidotal.


I occasionally look at my providers "webmail" (iprimus.com.au) and noticed they had activated a "spam prevention" for an extra $4 a month unknowingly for me? I decided to send me a test email naturaly it and others I sent never arrived (I never ever use a providers email address and never will)

Not sure what gmail charge but they do allow their email system to collect email using your domain
I use "TheBat" Voyager on a USB to send and collect email as part of theBat's price they include an Email account using Gmail

It is never needed to use a providers email think carefully before you do




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