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cyberboy

good job on yahoo groups

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I would like to congratulate SpamCop on the blacklisting of Yahoo Groups. As you may know, Yahoo Groups is an opt-in service where people subscribe to groups to get emails related to the topic of the group. I, as most people on this forum, feel that this is an issue that must be dealt with. It is wrong for any ISP to encourage people to communicate by electronic means. I do see some problems however, even though they blocked yahoo groups, you all seemed to forgot my bank, student loan companies, my fathers email address, the university I am an alumnus from, monster.com, career builder, all of the universities I sent employment applications to and so on. On top of that, SpamCop sent me an email to allow me to be able to post in this forum. This goes against their stance against opt-in email.

I highly recommend that SpamCop devise a method of insuring that disgruntled spam reporters notify the opt-in services that they opted into at one point about continuation emails after opt-out. Just because they have a problem with yahoo groups, doesn't mean I have to suffer. Even the Better Business Bureau and the United States legal system requires a complainer to notify the company first before filing their complaint.

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Yahoo groups have a history of spamming. They're not as bad as they used to be, but there is no evidence that one of the lists wasn't in fact spamming. There is absolutely no reason that Yahoo groups should be given special treatment.

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I get a lot of spam on my yahoo e-mail, eventhough I never used or gave that adress to any one. Opt in or not I have the right to protect myself from such unwanted abuse. Since that e-mail address is very much working as a spam trap (never made public), everything coming to it was never consented to in any form.

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I find your post to be very confusing. Perhaps you were trying to be sarcastic in there somewhere, but the mixing up of fact and fantasy don't seem to have left a real point to your post.

I would like to congratulate SpamCop on the blacklisting of Yahoo Groups.  As you may know, Yahoo Groups is an opt-in service where people subscribe to groups to get emails related to the topic of the group.

Yes and no ..?? Though I don't know if it's still possible, but I do recall that there was notification that limits had been placed on how many addresses a day a group moderator could automagically "subscribe" a day, as so many spammers were making a group, adding in a zillion "member's addresses", hitting the "spew" button, knowing full well that the group/account would be taken down eventually ...

I, as most people on this forum, feel that this is an issue that must be dealt with.  It is wrong for any ISP to encourage people to communicate by electronic means.

If not sarcasm, what's the actual meaning of this statement?

I do see some problems however, even though they blocked yahoo groups, you all seemed to forgot my bank, student loan companies, my fathers email address, the university I am an alumnus from, monster.com, career builder, all of the universities I sent employment applications to and so on.

What's the connection between your bank, work, univeristy, etc. with your rant on a Yahoo Group (IP address) being blocked? Normally, these kinds of e-mail would be coming to/from something more akin to a "personal" e-mail account.

  On top of that, SpamCop sent me an email to allow me to be able to post in this forum.  This goes against their stance against opt-in email.

Huh? For you to get an e-mail with the 'key' to join the group, one would have had to fill in the blanks to request such a key. If this request was accomplished by someone other than yourself, forging your e-mail address, then the proper thing to do would have been to report the issue. As far as "their stance against opt-in mail" ... what are you talking about? That you're posting here says that something worked along the lines of most recommended best practices of opt-in anything.

I highly recommend that SpamCop devise a method of insuring that disgruntled spam reporters notify the opt-in services that they opted into at one point about continuation emails after opt-out.

Please see a note or two I typed in above. Not all the alleged opt-ins are real opt-ins. According to my spam load, I must spend hours upon hours a day, signing up for all kinds of get rich quick, make me a man, use the money saved on a low-cost mortgage to pay for the extended warranty on my new car, and never grow old or fat with all the cheap drugs available ... yet, I can't recall ever going to a site that offered this garbage, much less filling in any of the "please send me more crap" forms.

Beyond that, there are rules about what can and cannot be reported as spam, and violations of these rules incur things such as fines and even banishment from the SpamCop system.

Just because they have a problem with yahoo groups, doesn't mean I have to suffer.  Even the Better Business Bureau and the United States legal system requires a complainer to notify the company first before filing their complaint.

Are you the Yahoo Group moderator/list owner/what the hell ever they're called of the Yahoo Group in question? If not, contact that person to see what's actually going on. Then again, it may haven't a thing to do with whatever Group you're alluding to, as once again, it's the IP address of the e-mail source that gets listed (and de-listed) on the BL .... and I don't see a sign of just what IP it is that's got you going.

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I suppose you have a better way to stop spam?

Yahoo Groups is only as good as the administrator that runs the specific group.

I have received spam from the yahoo groups I have joined and I have reported it.

Your complaints are ridiculous and without substance.

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I find your post to be very confusing. Perhaps you were trying to be sarcastic in there somewhere, but the mixing up of fact and fantasy don't seem to have left a real point to your post.

Yes I am being sarcastic. I opted in to the yahoo groups I was receiving email from. SpamCop blocked them. I did not receive the messages I opted in for. Therefore SpamCop blocks messages that people opted-in for.

Though I don't know if it's still possible, but I do recall that there was notification that limits had been placed on how many addresses a day a group moderator could automagically "subscribe" a day, as so many spammers were making a group, adding in a zillion "member's addresses", hitting the "spew" button, knowing full well that the group/account would be taken down eventually ...

Most, if not all groups, I have subscribed to have all messages approved by the moderator. If I send an unsolicited message to the group, the moderator will not approve the message and therefore the message will not be sent to members of the group. The problem is that there is some abuse from some of the groups so SpamCop blocks email messages from all yahoo groups to any ISP that uses this filters. SpamCop has no rights to block Yahoo, being that it is a lagitimant commersial service. If you have a problem with abuses with Yahoo that please consult http://abuse.yahoo.com/

As an example of how SpamCop works, lets say I rent a mail box from a postal company (like the UPS Store/Mail Boxes Etc.). They tell me that with their service included junk mail reduction. I go online and request quotes from an auto insurance company. They send quotes by mail. The postal company posts my mail and removes the piece of mail with quotes because the auto insurance company also sends out a lot of junk mail and it was listed on their third-party junk mail list. The postal company says this is OK because the insurance company sends out a lot of junk mail. I ask for the piece of mail that they refuse to deliver and they say that I don’t have the rights to that piece of mail because the insurance company sends out a lot of junk mail. Excluding the legal issues of First Class Mail in the U.S., this action falls under the torte of wrongful interference of contract negotiations. The same is true with SpamCop. If I opt-in for emails, SpamCop has no rights to block them.

A related question is, what relation did I have with SpamCop that they took the liberty to block my email. I had never been to their web page? If people have problems with Yahoo groups, then why don’t they complain to Yahoo’s abuse email address? (http://abuse.yahoo.com/)

What's the connection between your bank, work, univeristy, etc. with your rant on a Yahoo Group (IP address) being blocked? Normally, these kinds of e-mail would be coming to/from something more akin to a "personal" e-mail account.

I can’t believe I am answering this question. If SpamCop blocks all incoming messages from one commercial group, then what stops them from blocking all messages from other commercial groups. If people report my bank as a spammer then I will not be able to receive messages from my bank. The same is true concerning employers, universities, my fathers ISP, job search web pages, etc.

A good example would be a university department sending bulk emails to department alumni. Several of the alumni are angry with the university. The report the email to SpamCop. Two problems exist with this. It is assumed that one who earns a degree from said university opted in for future correspondence, especially when they provided an updated off campus email address. The second issue is, if they do not want the university to correspond with them, they should contact the university first to have their name removed from the list and their account marked as “Do not contact.” It is unfair to report the university to SpamCop, the university has no idea that you do not want to be contacted.

Huh? For you to get an e-mail with the 'key' to join the group, one would have had to fill in the blanks to request such a key. If this request was accomplished by someone other than yourself, forging your e-mail address, then the proper thing to do would have been to report the issue. As far as "their stance against opt-in mail" ... what are you talking about? That you're posting here says that something worked along the lines of most recommended best practices of opt-in anything.

I opted-in for the emails I got from Yahoo Groups, SpamCop blocked those. If opting in is unacceptable to SpamCop then it would be wrong for SpamCop to do the same. “Their stance against opt-in mail…” is referring to the fact that SpamCop blocked email from addresses I opted in for. This would mean that SpamCop is against email that people opted in for. One can not block something and say that they support it. One can not say it was an accident since every one and their dog knows what Yahoo and related services are.

Not all the alleged opt-ins are real opt-ins.

So you are telling me that I really didn’t opt-in for services that I opted in for? By what rights, do you call me a liar? How do you know I did not opt-in for the message groups? What else do you know about me that I did not tell you? You really need to define phrases like, “Not all the alleged opt-ins are real opt-ins.“ before you make them.

According to my spam load, I must spend hours upon hours a day, signing up for all kinds of get rich quick, make me a man, use the money saved on a low-cost mortgage to pay for the extended warranty on my new car, and never grow old or fat with all the cheap drugs available ... yet, I can't recall ever going to a site that offered this garbage, much less filling in any of the "please send me more crap" forms.

If you are having problems with Yahoo IP addresses than I recommend visiting http://abuse.yahoo.com/ like most reasonable people.

Are you the Yahoo Group moderator/list owner/what the hell ever they're called of the Yahoo Group in question? If not, contact that person to see what's actually going on. Then again, it may haven't a thing to do with whatever Group you're alluding to, as once again, it's the IP address of the e-mail source that gets listed (and de-listed) on the BL .... and I don't see a sign of just what IP it is that's got you going.

The messages are going through Yahoo's email server. The member emails the group list and the group list sends the message to other members (moderator approval may be needed depending on how the group is set up. SpamCop blocked a bunch of IP addresses that belong to Yahoo.

Yahoo Groups is only as good as the administrator that runs the specific group.

SpamCop blocked a group of IP addresses that belongs to Yahoo, not the group moderator.

I have received spam from the yahoo groups I have joined and I have reported it.

Why did you report Yahoo Groups when you opted in? If someone is sending spam to the group, then it is the Yahoo list server that is sending it. You are blocking yahoo groups. You are blocking a service YOU opted in for. If you opted in for a service you have no right to report it to SpamCop. If you have an abuse complaint that consult yahoo’s abuse help pages at http://abuse.yahoo.com/

I suppose you have a better way to stop spam?

Yes, require me to opt-in for SpamCop. Or better yet, let me opt-out of SpamCop. By what right do you have to block my email when I didn’t know you existed. The only way I know who you were was from the bounce message I read on Yahoo. Not only did YOU block my email, YOU cut me off from the groups. I had to reverify MY email address because YOU kept bouncing them. Don’t tell me that SpamCop did not, that it was my ISP that blocked the email. It was YOUR service that provided the IP list to block.

What right do you have to decide what email I can and can not receive? It is NOT your place to make my decisions. If I opt-in to a service, I have the RIGHTS receive the messages I opted in for. YOU have NO RIGHTS to decide for me. Who the hell are you all anyway? I have never met you, I have never corresponded with you before this, I have never signed up for your service, buy yet you decide what email I get and what I don’t. I live in America, I have the RIGHTS in a capitalist society to receive information and messages I request. I do NOT live in a communist country.

If you want to block spam, then fine, block your OWN email accounts. Do NOT block email from people don’t even know you exist.

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Before you start complaining about things you do not know anything about, you better read up first. You do know how to read?

Spamcop did not block your email. Spamcop does not block any emails. If you are not receiving something that has been blocked then "YOUR" ISP blocked it. If your email was blocked then the person you were sending it to blocked it or their ISP blocked it. Spamcop does not block any email. Many of us use the Spamcop blocklist on our email servers because we have found it a reliable way to stop the flow of spam coming into our inboxes.

Spamcop runs a service for reporting spam. This is a free service where people either send their spam email or copy their spam email in a form that parses the email to find out where it originated from. Once the amount of spam reaches a calculated amount the originating server is placed on the list of spammers. This list is made freely available to anyone running an email server to use to enable them to block email originating from known spam servers.

This list only contains IP numbers and not email addresses as email addresses in the "From" field can be readily forged and are not reliable. The only reliable source is the IP address the spam originated from.

I think you would agree with me that everyone is tired of receiving mortgage quotes, penis enlargement, breast enhancement, weight loss, nude 40 year old teenage sluts, Viagra, vacation, lottery, prescription drug, business opportunities, genealogical, university degrees, gambling, get rich quick, MLM, pyramid schemes, Web Cams, Russian brides, work from home, stock scams, pirated software and everything else that is force fed into our inboxes.

The internet is not "YOUR" little playground. The internet is made up of millions of "Private" networks and the people who own those private networks have the right to decide who they let in and who they block.

Where did you ever get the right to decide what goes into others inboxes?

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Spamcop does not block your email. Spamcop provides a list IP addresses known to be recent sources of spam. It has nothing to do with not liking anyone's opting in to a yahoo group; the IP addresses listed are factually a source of spam. Some ISPs choose to block email based on this compilation in order to protect their customers. ISPs have every legal and moral right to do this; this is not a "communist country". If you don't want your mail filtered, then choose a different ISP. You might also complain to yahoo for its failure to control spam from some its groups. Complaints to people who don't want email from known spamming IP addresses are irrelevant.

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Where did you ever get the right to decide what goes into others inboxes?

If I was to answer for him I would say, NEVER!

His/her rumbblings are totally misinformed nonsense. It is even a waste of time and energy to sort through what they may attempt to mean...

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Now that I am at my own computer, Here is the details:

Three days ago I downloaded my 100+ email from my message board email account (as opposed to my personal email address, that never give out online for spiders to get, and my signup email account, aka spambox). Today I went to download my email from my message board account and there where only 3 massages. Problem: email from my message board account was bouncing and I needed to reverify my addy. I checked the status of my email addresses under yahoo and found that the email was in fact bouncing. It provided the following info for reason:

Remote host said: 550 5.7.1 66.218.66.83 blocked according spamcop.net:see http://spamcop.net/bl

[MAIL_FROM]

I went to SpamCop’s webpage for the first time and looked up the IP and got the following:

[snip]

Query bl.spamcop.net - 66.218.66.83

66.218.66.83 is n27.grp.scd.yahoo.com

[/snip]

[snip]

Since SpamCop started counting, this system has been reported about 440 times by about 220 users. It has been sending mail consistently for at least 69.1 days. In the past 348.0 days, it has been listed 8 times for a total of 15.2 days

In the past week, this system has:

* Been reported as a source of spam less than 10 times

* Been witnessed sending mail about 16660 times

Other hosts in this "neighborhood" with spam reports:

* 66.218.66.64

* 66.218.66.65

* 66.218.66.66

* 66.218.66.67

* 66.218.66.68

* 66.218.66.69

* 66.218.66.70

* 66.218.66.71

* 66.218.66.72

* 66.218.66.73

* 66.218.66.74

* 66.218.66.75

* 66.218.66.76

* 66.218.66.77

* 66.218.66.78

* 66.218.66.79

* 66.218.66.80

* 66.218.66.81

* 66.218.66.82

* 66.218.66.84

* 66.218.66.85

* 66.218.66.86

* 66.218.66.87

* 66.218.66.88

* 66.218.66.89

* 66.218.66.90

* 66.218.66.91

* 66.218.66.92

* 66.218.66.93

* 66.218.66.99

* 66.218.66.100

* 66.218.66.101

* 66.218.66.102

* 66.218.66.103

* 66.218.66.104

* 66.218.66.105

* 66.218.66.106

* 66.218.66.107

* 66.218.66.108

* 66.218.66.166

* 66.218.66.167

* 66.218.66.172

* 66.218.66.173

* 66.218.66.188

* 66.218.66.189

* 66.218.66.219

* 66.218.66.220

* 66.218.66.235

* 66.218.66.242

* 66.218.67.16

* 66.218.67.17

* 66.218.67.18

* 66.218.67.19

* 66.218.67.21

* 66.218.67.23

* 66.218.67.24

* 66.218.67.25

* 66.218.67.37

* 66.218.67.38

A sample sent sometime during the 24 hours beginning Wednesday, 19 May, 2004 07:00:00 PM -0500:

Received: from -.-.-.-.com (66.218.66.83)-

by -.-.net with - - May 2004 - -

Subject: - spam - need a -

From: gi.. at ..r.com

A sample sent sometime during the 24 hours beginning Wednesday, 19 May, 2004 07:00:00 PM -0500:

Received: from -.-.-.-.com (66.218.66.83)-

by -.-.net with - - May 2004 - -

Subject: - spam - need a -

From: gi.. at ..r.com

[/snip]

SpamCop blocked yahoo groups

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SpamCop blocked yahoo groups

Spamcop does not block anything, it provides lists of spammy IPs. It is up to other ISPs to use that information. Do your homework and come back with some reasonable questions if you are here to seek answers. Otherwise your time and ours is wasted.

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SpamCop blocked them. I did not receive the messages I opted in for. Therefore SpamCop blocks messages that people opted-in for.

Spamcop has no ability to block email messages not directed through their servers. If you are a spamcop email customer, your suspected spam is diverted to a held mail folder for inspection.

Some other party that has control over part of your mail path (perhaps your ISP) has used the spamcop blocking list to block your message. Your complaint should be with whoever blocked the message. The list was created for spamcop's internal use and has been made available for those who wish to use it, as other blocklists have.

this action falls under the torte of wrongful interference of contract negotiations. The same is true with SpamCop. If I opt-in for emails, SpamCop has no rights to block them.

IANAL, but if you signed the contract with the postal company to reduce your junk mail and you did not tell them you wanted this specific mail (whitelist) I don't thnk you would get very far in a lawsuit.

And again, unless you subscribe to spamcop email service, spamcop did not block your email.

A related question is, what relation did I have with SpamCop that they took the liberty to block my email. I had never been to their web page?

Your relation is that some party that handles your email is using the spamcop blocklist to reduce spam. Your complaint is with them.

If people have problems with Yahoo groups, then why don’t they complain to Yahoo’s abuse email address? (http://abuse.yahoo.com/)

They do and when those complaints are ignored the IP takes longer to cycle off the blocklist because complaints keep coming.

It is assumed that one who earns a degree from said university opted in for future correspondence, especially when they provided an updated off campus email address.

Incorrect assumption. If a person provides an email address for a certain purpose, it should be used ONLY for that purpose. Providing an email address for the alumni group does not mean that they can spam me for the booster club. I did not request that communications.

The second issue is, if they do not want the university to correspond with them, they should contact the university first to have their name removed from the list and their account marked as “Do not contact.” It is unfair to report the university to SpamCop, the university has no idea that you do not want to be contacted.

But I do want to be contacted about certain issues I have requested to be conacted for. If the University departments are sharing their mailing lists, it should (and will) be reported.

the fact that SpamCop blocked email from addresses I opted in for.

Whoever blocked those messages blocked them because they came from an IP addrss that had been reported as sending spam from multiple reporters.

One can not say it was an accident since every one and their dog knows what Yahoo and related services are.

Yes, from my experince, they support spammers.

So you are telling me that I really didn’t opt-in for services that I opted in for? By what rights, do you call me a liar?

That is not what was said. "Not all the alleged opt-ins are real opt-ins." Just because your opt-in was legitimat does not mean they all were.

Why did you report Yahoo Groups when you opted in? If someone is sending spam to the group, then it is the Yahoo list server that is sending it. You are blocking yahoo groups. You are blocking a service YOU opted in for. If you opted in for a service you have no right to report it to SpamCop. If you have an abuse complaint that consult yahoo’s abuse help pages at http://abuse.yahoo.com/

This was the first thing I completely agree with you about. If a group I signed up for is spammed, it is up to the group administrator to report it. If this is what happened, then the reporter can be disciplined, fined or completely removed from reporting privliges. However, if I did not signup for the group, that is no longer my responsibility.

Don’t tell me that SpamCop did not, that it was my ISP that blocked the email.

Why not, that is what happened and that (your ISP) is the one you should be complaining to. I complained to my ISP when they started using spamcop without my knowledge or consent with no way to whitlist addresses I wished to receive, and I use the spamcop service myself.

It was YOUR service that provided the IP list to block.

And it was your ISP that used the list against reccomended practice. It is your ISP that should be hearing your complaints. How many other blocklists (there are many available) is your ISP using without your consent?

If you want to block spam, then fine, block your OWN email accounts. Do NOT block email from people don’t even know you exist.

That is how it is setup. Someone configured your email to be blocked by (at least) the spamcop blocklist. Spamcop has no access to your email account.

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Spamcop does not block your email. Spamcop provides a list IP addresses known to be recent sources of spam. It has nothing to do with not liking anyone's opting in to a yahoo group; the IP addresses listed are factually a source of spam.

Spamcop did not block your email. Spamcop does not block any emails. If you are not receiving something that has been blocked then "YOUR" ISP blocked it. If your email was blocked then the person you were sending it to blocked it or their ISP blocked it. Spamcop does not block any email. Many of us use the Spamcop blocklist on our email servers because we have found it a reliable way to stop the flow of spam coming into our inboxes.

So my ISP can choose to not block Yahoo IP address on their end? How can they if they it only goes by IP addresses and not domain names?

I am looking for reasonable answers to my concerns, not people passing the buck. The ISP for the email account most likely subscribed to your service “in good faith” that this problem would not happen. It is not my ISP’s fault that SpamCop added yahoo groups to their blacklist. It is SpamCops fault because they provided the blacklist. To pass the buck to my ISP is like saying “Blame them, they are the stupid people who chose to use our product.”

I am an innocent bystander, I opted in to some message groups on a well known server. I chose to receive those messages. I deal with the spam consequences of my actions. You all took it upon your self to blacklist a message server from a well known provider. You all blocked my email. You choose what email I can receive for me. I have no choice but to switch ISP’s and/or report this to my Attorney General.

From Merlyn's sig:  Where did you ever get the right to decide what goes into others inboxes?

Stop restating me and answer the question.

His/her rumbblings are totally misinformed nonsense. It is even a waste of time and energy to sort through what they may attempt to mean...

A clear attempt to bypass the issue... I am an email recipient. I opted in to yahoo groups. SpamCop provided the blacklist to my ISP stating that I should not get those emails. SpamCop’s blacklist stated I should not get email I opted in for. Is that clear or do I need to draw pictures.

It would be one thing if I was a spammer and I was blacklisted, but I am on the other side. I am the email recipient. It is irrelevant what you all believe. IF THE BLACKLIST BLOCKS EMAILS PEOPLE REQUEST THEN SPAMCOP IS WORTHLESS!!!!!

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Since SpamCop started counting, this system has been reported about 440 times by about 220 users. It has been sending mail consistently for at least 69.1 days. In the past 348.0 days, it has been listed 8 times for a total of 15.2 days

...

SpamCop blocked yahoo groups

Yahoo groups spam a whole lot of people. If they stop that, they will stay off the list.

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How about this ... take a deep breath, park your anger .. take the time to wade through the (work-in-progress) FAQ found at http://forum.spamcop.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=972 ... although written from the other end of the argument, almost every one of your (generally wrong) statements are explained there.

Then, at least if / when you want to continue on complaining to the wrong collection of folks about your problem, you'll at least be much more informed as to how the "blocking" actually occurs and who is actually responsible for your "missing" e-mail.

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Yahoo groups spam a whole lot of people.

..and in doing so they infringe on our liberty to be free of spam, we have the right to protect our inboxes...

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So my ISP can choose to not block Yahoo IP address on their end? How can they if they it only goes by IP addresses and not domain names?

Yes. They can whitelist the specific IP, they can whitelist the specific email address (usually the reply-to) of the group, they can stop using spamcop, they can do a whole lot of things in between. You need to speak with them about this issue.

The ISP for the email account most likely subscribed to your service “in good faith” that this problem would not happen.

There is no subscribing involved to use the spamcop blocklist. It is freely available like the yahoo search engine. You just point your server to it to check the IP address against the list.

“Blame them, they are the stupid people who chose to use our product.”

No, they are using the product against the stated reccomendations for use of the produuct. If you use a blow dryer to melt snow off your roof and you are electrocuted, whose fault is it really? (No jury trial here)

I have no choice but to switch ISP’s and/or report this to my Attorney General.

How about talking to your ISP. You seem to think they are not involved here and it is they who are blocking your messages.

SpamCop provided the blacklist to my ISP stating that I should not get those emails. SpamCop’s blacklist stated I should not get email I opted in for.

Spamcop makes no such statements. Being on spamcop's blocklist simply means that a certain percentage of all messages coming from that IP address have been reported as spam by reporters at spamcop. The actual blacklist simply replies to the request with either a 127.0.0.2 (listed) or no found message (not listed).

IF THE BLACKLIST BLOCKS EMAILS PEOPLE REQUEST THEN SPAMCOP IS WORTHLESS!!!!!

Then tell your ISP to stop using it. If your account is worth the reported $1200/month they are probably saving by not accepting email from known spam sources, they will stop using it.

They may also tell you how you can add certain email addresses to over-ride any listings they are using. Or they may over-ride the email or IP addresses for you. Unless you ask, you will never know.

Good luck with this issue. Please report back what your ISP tells you.

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If you are having problems with Yahoo IP addresses than I recommend visiting http://abuse.yahoo.com/ like most reasonable people.

All the reports about spam sent from spamcop went to the abuse department at yahoo. If the IP addresses ended up on the blocklist, then the abuse department did not take any action. There are two actions possible: stop the spam or if they consider that a spamcop reporter made a mistake, contact the reporter and contact spamcop. spamcop will delist immediately if reporters have made errors. Both actions result in delisting.

It is annoying to have your email blocked. However, you are the one who can really do something about it. Only the *sending* end of spam can control spam. If you can't convince your provider to stop spamming, then you can use a responsible provider. Responsible providers do not have problems with blocklists. There may temporary glitches, but there are also outages due to other problems like careless backhoes and storms.

I am not entirely sure who is using the blocklist, but you have a choice among email service providers. However, caveat emptor. If you don't know how to choose, you are likely to get a service that is irresponsible.

Miss Betsy

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So my ISP can choose to not block Yahoo IP address on their end?  How can they if they it only goes by IP addresses and not domain names?

Your ISP can do anything they want to do with your e-mail, based on their technical skills and the limits of their software/haedware. There is a thing called "whitelisting" that most folks that deal with e-mail have at least heard of ...

I am looking for reasonable answers to my concerns, not people passing the buck.  The ISP for the email account most likely subscribed to your service “in good faith” that this problem would not happen.

The SpamCopDNSbl is provided for no cost at this point in time (though donations are accepted, and providing mirroring for the BL also has some benefit) .. so there is no "subscription" .. your ISP chose to "configure" the e-mail server application they are using to reach out and use the contents of the SpamCopDNSbl .. and also, is apparently using it to "block" vice the recommended practice of using to "Tag" .. Again, we're back to your ISP's handling of "your" e-mail.

It is not my ISP’s fault that SpamCop added yahoo groups to their blacklist.  It is SpamCops fault because they provided the blacklist.  To pass the buck to my ISP is like saying “Blame them, they are the stupid people who chose to use our product.”

No one here has siad "stupid" .. but, yes, your ISP has chosen to use the BL, based on your complaints and evidence.

I am an innocent bystander, I opted in to some message groups on a well known server.  I chose to receive those messages.  I deal with the spam consequences of my actions.

On the other hand, perhaps your ISP is trying to save excessive bandwidth charges that they pay to their provider due to way too much incoming spam or they are tired of complaints from their other customers over the amount of incoming spam, and thus begat their use of the SpamCopDNSbl (and probably a number of other BL's)?

  You all took it upon your self to blacklist a message server from a well known provider.  You all blocked my email.  You choose what email I can receive for me.  I have no choice but to switch ISP’s and/or report this to my Attorney General.

First of all, there really isn't a "you" here. Second of all, there is no one "here" that has any control at all over your e-mail. Thirdly, switching ISP's is a great option if you're that unhappy with their services, and good luck with the AG.

IF THE BLACKLIST BLOCKS EMAILS PEOPLE REQUEST THEN SPAMCOP IS WORTHLESS!!!!!

Yep, that's why folks like your ISP continue to add to their arsenal of anti-spam tools with items like the SpamCopDNSbl ..

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Let's make sure I understand this.

Spamcop reporters have been reporting as spam messages that they have received through Yahoo groups to which they have opted in.

If they feel that the material they are receiving is spam they have the option of reporting it to Yahoo and relying on them to deal with the issue.

If that is not sufficient they can unsubscribe from the Yahoo groups generating the dubious messages.

Instead, they report them as spam to Spamcop, with the result that even the well-run Yahoo groups are blocked.

If this is correct it seems to me to be a drastic over-reaction, and one that is bound to agravate a lot of Yahoo group subscribers.

Those people have opted to receive the messages from particular groups. If they object to the content of those messages (whether because of the volume of spam, or because they no longer have interest in the topic) they can unsubscribe (and please don't tell me that Yahoo will not process their unsubscribe requests).

This is a clear example of an instance where the peripheral damage done by Spamcop in terms of blocking of messages which are actually wanted is out of all proportion to the benefits, since it is easy enough to cut off the supply of spam from that source by unsubscribing.

The Spancop reporting guidelines should prohibit the reporting of any messages from a group to which the reporter has opted in.

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So my ISP can choose to not block Yahoo IP address on their end? How can they if they it only goes by IP addresses and not domain names?

Your ISP can use the spamcop or any other black list any way it chooses, but the IP address is the only reliable indicator of the source of the spam. The domain name in the Received header is easily forged by spammers and usually is. Nevertheless, your ISP can base a whitelist on anything it wants to.

I am looking for reasonable answers to my concerns, not people passing the buck. The ISP for the email account most likely subscribed to your service “in good faith” that this problem would not happen. It is not my ISP’s fault that SpamCop added yahoo groups to their blacklist. It is SpamCops fault because they provided the blacklist.

You have been provided with reasonable answers, but you would evidently prefer to pass the buck yourself onto spamcop rather than listen. Spamcop reliably and factually lists IP addresses responsible for spamming. Aside from its own email service, that is all it does. Spamcop proudly takes responsibility for that; it is not a "fault". Stop blaming the messenger.

To pass the buck to my ISP is like saying “Blame them, they are the stupid people who chose to use our product.”

Your ISP made a sensible choice on behalf of its customers. The issue is not one of blaming your ISP, but of attempting (several times now) to explain to you that spamcop is not blocking your mail and that you are complaining to the wrong place. If you don't want your email filtered for spam, then choose an ISP that either does not filter or allows you to bypass the filters. It is you who is passing the buck.

I am an innocent bystander, I opted in to some message groups on a well known server. I chose to receive those messages. I deal with the spam consequences of my actions. You all took it upon your self to blacklist a message server from a well known provider. You all blocked my email. You choose what email I can receive for me. I have no choice but to switch ISP’s and/or report this to my Attorney General.

Again, spamcop did not block your email -- and neither did those of us on this forum, who are almost all only users of spamcop. It does not matter how "well known" your server is; it is repeatedly identified, factually, as a source of spam. If you want to "deal with the spam consequences of [your] actions", then you will have to take all of the actions necessary for that by making the appropriate choice for your email service provider and how your filters are configured. It is not enough to tell a network (yahoo groups) known for spamming that you "opt-in" and expect that no one else will defend against the spamming. Neither you nor any Attorney General may interfere with spamcop's right to identify IP addresses responsible for spam, or to interfere with an ISP's rights to set the terms offered for the use of its network to reduce spam on behalf of its customers. That is well-established in law. As an "innocent bystander" you are a victim of the spammers and the irresponsibility of yahoo in inadequately controlling spam from its network, not those who identify that fact.

A clear attempt to bypass the issue... I am an email recipient. I opted in to yahoo groups. SpamCop provided the blacklist to my ISP stating that I should not get those emails. SpamCop’s blacklist stated I should not get email I opted in for. Is that clear or do I need to draw pictures.

You need to understand what spamcop does, what your ISP does, and what yahoo does -- and to stop blaming spamcop for providing factual information. Maybe drawing pictures for yourself will help you if you can't otherwise understand the issue conceptually, provided you fully capture all the logical relations.

It would be one thing if I was a spammer and I was blacklisted, but I am on the other side. I am the email recipient. It is irrelevant what you all believe.

It is obviously very relevant what we believe or you wouldn't be here. Unfortunately you don't seem to want to understand what that is.

IF THE BLACKLIST BLOCKS EMAILS PEOPLE REQUEST THEN SPAMCOP IS WORTHLESS!!!!!

See http://forum.spamcop.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=660

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IANAL, but if you signed the contract with the postal company to reduce your junk mail and you did not tell them you wanted this specific mail (whitelist) I don't thnk you would get very far in a lawsuit.

Whitelists are irrelevant in that example since failure to deliver postal mail that deals with contractual agreements is a felony in the U.S. That is why postal services do not have junk mail filtering. The laws have not been written yet, and apparently SpamCop will not take it upon themselves to fix the problem so I hope a law is passed soon. It’s no use to talk about whitelist when I have no access to one.

Your relation is that some party that handles your email is using the spamcop blocklist to reduce spam. Your complaint is with them.

So you are saying that they should not use your service because of one problem that you all can fix?

Incorrect assumption. If a person provides an email address for a certain purpose, it should be used ONLY for that purpose. Providing an email address for the alumni group does not mean that they can spam me for the booster club. I did not request that communications.

Incorrect assumption, most colleges in the United States do not have alumni organizations (community colleges, smaller state colleges, small private and graduate colleges, etc.). Even with the university I graduated from with an alumni organization, I had the option of updating my email address in the overall student/alumni directory. I was actually referring to emails from a collage of a university such and the College of Business Administration. In this case they would be emailing about alumni gatherings for departmental/college events such as retirement parties for retired professors. Even though you seem to be repulsed by the idea, I like knowing about such events. FYI, in most colleges, it is the Alumni group / Foundation that is the booster club asking for money.

After time goes by, alumni decide to break ties with the school and request to opt-out of communication. In this case, they need to notify the college, not blacklist them. If we graduated from the same college, it is not you position to decide that I should not know that a professor was retiring.

But I do want to be contacted about certain issues I have requested to be conacted for. If the University departments are sharing their mailing lists, it should (and will) be reported.

Being that I have graduated from 3 colleges/universities of various sizes and I am currently doing temp work at a small graduate school, I have to say that you are very presumptuous in believing all the small colleges/universities keep upteen million alumni mailing lists. They have one, I have yet to see any be challenged. My point in the example is that it is pointless to blacklist your previous university every time they send you an email you don’t want. It is more productive to call or write them to take your name off of the list. If you blacklist them, they will NOT know that you want to be removed from their list. All you do is hurt the alumni that really care about what is going on.

Whoever blocked those messages blocked them because they came from an IP addrss that had been reported as sending spam from multiple reporters.

Why should I suffer, I’m the innocent recipient that you are hurting.

Why not, that is what happened and that (your ISP) is the one you should be complaining to.

Should I also let them know that you all are saying they are stupid?

I have no problems with the concept of SpamCop. I support blocking real spam. My problem is that you are blocking my opt-in email messages. A small problem that needs to be fix. If SpamCop continues to blacklist IPs users opt-in to, then the service is worthless and all of your hard work of bettering the Internet by controlling spam is wasted. I only meant to raise awareness, but everyone seems compelled to defend the flaws of a “work-in-process”. It’s the Microsoft philosophy “It’s not a bug, it’s a feature.” Why should I complain to my ISP, they are using your service in “good faith” that it works. Are you saying I should tell then to not use your service because it has a bug in it? That’s like my complaining to a computer store that a piece of software has a bug in it. What are they support to do? Not carry the product any more. No, one should contact the company that designed the product and tell them about the bug. They are the one that has the power to fix it.

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You are making the wrong assumption that your offending IP was listed because of newsgroup content, it is more likely that that IP was compromized and used to spew spam, and I mean real spam. What makes you thing that the 100s reports by several users required to list the IP were all opt in content? Given that your initial assumption to build your argument is not true, your whole rambbling is useless and pointless... even counterintuitive, but I digress!

I think what you require is not a helpful counterargument but a training in logical thinking, unfortunately that has never been the mission of this forum! :D

Edited by dra007

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Let's make sure I understand this.

Spamcop reporters have been reporting as spam messages that they have received through Yahoo groups to which they have opted in.

No.

If they feel that the material they are receiving is spam they have the option of reporting it to Yahoo and relying on them to deal with the issue.

If that is not sufficient they can unsubscribe from the Yahoo groups generating the dubious messages.

I have reported spam that I received via "groups" like yahoo or topica for which I did not sign up for.

In the past I also encountered at least one group moderator who had unilaterally decided that I should be receiving all of his group's political proselytizing "information". He had a system of "updating" his lists so that getting out of the system once wasn't enough. They eventually through him off, but it took months and several long distance telephone calls.

A more recent case involved a non-functional address for unsubscribing. It took over a week to get yahoo's attention.

I have reported spam that I received from yahoo's own "affiliates" and advertizers which had nothing to do with any group -- unchecking the "default opt-in" in the fine print had made no difference. It took several complaints over weeks before anything was done to stop it.

Yahoo hosting is also notorious for ignoring complaints with canned responses claiming the spam was not sent from yahoo.

Even signing up for a group on a specific topic is not "opting in" for obviously unrelated spam.

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