multiple domain names

[renoir 0]

I have half a dozen domain names with multiple addresses forwarding to my spamcop.net address. All on the same IP address. I tried to register mailhosts, and it always rewrites the email address with the last one submitted. Is it ok to just have the mailhost IP address listed in the mailhosts area even though there are over a dozen email addresses forwarding from that server?

many thanks for this necessary service.

[Ellen 0]

I have half a dozen domain names with multiple addresses forwarding to my spamcop.net address. All on the same IP address.  I tried to register mailhosts, and it always rewrites the email address with the last one submitted. Is it ok to just have the mailhost IP address listed in the  mailhosts area even though there are over a dozen email addresses forwarding from that server?

many thanks for this necessary service.

Yes -- as long as there is one IP address that is fine.

[dbiel 0]

Link to pinned item - Mail Hosts Defined (link added 7-31-04) see post #3

Refer to the following post for a more information

http://forum.spamcop.net/forums/index.php?...st=0entry7139

As a short summary and in clarification, as the format of the list has changed, the following may help to better understand what the list actually contains:

The "Mailhost name" is the registered name of the mail host which can service many different domains. As an example "Mindspring" is the mailhost name for Earthlink and all the many other domains it manages.

"Email address" is the last email address that you registered that uses the "Mailhost name" indicated above it. You may have many different addresses and or domains, but as long as they use the same "Mailhost name" only the last one registered will be listed.

"Hosts/Domains" is a bit confusing as it does not list every domain served by the "Mailhost name" What it does list is the name of the various mail host servers utilized by the "Mailhost name" Those names appear in a drop down list.

"Relaying IP's" lists only the IP addresses of the relays used by the Mailhost

It does not list IP address for the Mailhosts themselves or of any individual user.

The addresses appear in a drop down list.

Edited July 31, 2004 by dbiel

[piper56 0]

After following the procedure to register mailhosts, one of my mailhosts is "successfully registered" but with the "mailhost name" indicating some Arabian businessman in London with whom I have no connection.

A call to the ISP (Verio) confirms that this guy does have a domain on the server I share, and his POP3 account is on the same mail server.

My question is, why does Spamcop's system automatically pick this guy's domain to identify my account instead of using my own unique identifiers, and what do I do if he turns out to be some kind of spam King?

Not happy, here. Not happy at all.

[StevenUnderwood 0]

My question is, why does Spamcop's system automatically pick this guy's domain to identify my account instead of using my own unique identifiers

All mailhost information is shared, and the name is only a name which links the IP addresses and hostnames associated with them. It takes the first name configured for that IP address. Thosse unique identifiers are only used if you are the first person to register the IP or host in question.

Also, the mailhost configuration does NOT ask you to use a unique identifier. It states:

What is the standard name of this email provider - for instance, hotmail.com might be referred to simply as "Hotmail"?

So both of you really should have used Verio as that is your email provider.

what do I do if he turns out to be some kind of spam King?

Call verio again because your email will be blocked but not because of the mailhosts configuration. It will be blocked because all the other users who reported his spam which came from your shared server.

[Ellen 0]

After following the procedure to register mailhosts, one of my mailhosts is "successfully registered" but with the "mailhost name" indicating some Arabian businessman in London with whom I have no connection.

A call to the ISP (Verio) confirms that this guy does have a domain on the server I share, and his POP3 account is on the same mail server.

My question is, why does Spamcop's system automatically pick this guy's domain to identify my account instead of using my own unique identifiers, and what do I do if he turns out to be some kind of spam King?

Not happy, here. Not happy at all.

If you send me your registered SC email address and the name of the MH that you don't like I can look at changing that something more generic.

[hadaso 0]

... 

Also, the mailhost configuration does NOT ask you to use a unique identifier.  It states:

What is the standard name of this email provider - for instance, hotmail.com might be referred to simply as "Hotmail"?

So both of you really should have used Verio as that is your email provider.

How is that? How can a person reading that "hotmail.com" might be refered to as "Hotmail" deduce from that that her own domain "is refered to simply as Verio"? or that "Earthlink is refered to simply as Mindspring"? This box in the first screen in the mailhosts configuration doesn't even hint that the string entered will be used for what is refered to by the word "mailhost".

Not that the word "mailhost" is precisely defined anywhere in that page or in the page leading to it. I had to spend at least 4 hours reading this forum to understand that in this "mailhosts system" probably means: "a string that is internally tied to an abstract entity, composed of a set of IP addresses that were somehow related to this string (in a way that I still haven't completely figured out) using a system of first comes - first served".

Not that it was the first thing that confused me. The first confusing term used is "account", which I understand as a sort of abstract entity, but the text hints that it might refer to what I call "email address" and not what I call "account". So after reading all that text, I get to the question "Do you understand and agree to all of the above?" and I really have to check "no" since I really don't understand!

Then there are instrustions that say that a test email would be sent with instructions to an email address that I want to register with further instructions. It is not explained why this test mail is needed before the process begins. Or how registering this email address is connected to to the account I want to register (account C according to the diagram in the mail mailhosts page, which in my case has several related addresses in different domains, some registered by the company that provides the email hosting, and one registered by myself.)

Then I am asked to vaguely describe this email provider (the example says that the domain name is not vague enough: hotmail is a better description than hotmail .com ...) Email provider? What email provider? The previous field refered to an email address, not a provider. If it is the address is in my own domain, am I the provider? Or perhaps it is the owner of the mail server that my MX records point to (the primary MX record? what if some of my secondary MXs belong to another "provider", whatever that means? there are people using a secondary MX on a forwarding service such as ZoneEdit forwarding to enhance reliability) And which name should I put there (Earthlink on Mindspring).

This is all too undefined. I searched the SpamCop faq and there is absolutely no reference to mailhosts. The only info available is on the Mailhosts page in SpamCop, and info scattered around this forum in many threads mainly discussing some users' specific problems. And there are hardly any clear definitions of the terms used and of the process. (What does "probe" mean? it's another undefined term used in some sticky post).

The entrance to the mailhosts system looks to much like a M$ wizard: just supply the info and the wizard will do the work for you (only those wizards avoid the technical terms needed to undersatand exactly what info is needed at each stage).

I think that a clear explanation of the process should be accessble to users before they have to submit info, and also the user should be informed exactly what info should be prepared for going through this mailhosts wizard.

Finally, I never had a problem with SpamCop failing to recognize correctly the "Received" header that is the point of entry of the spam to "my server", i.e., the first server in a sequence of forwarders that I use to forward email to my main account. And if there was, I could just cancel the spam report and not report myself. Most of the time I delete most of the "internal Received" headers since they are of no use to an abuse team getting a complaint. They just waste their time. They need to see the email as it entered my system (i.e., first "Received" header. The rest is noise).

I hope my comments don't sound too negative. I like spamcop, but I don't like the M$ wizard approach of never using precise terms and not telling the user exactly what is going on. I think it should not be hard to improve the documentation on the mailhosts system, and giving a bit more info in advance would have prevented most questions asled in this forum. From what I read I saw very few real bugs reported, and a lot of confusion about what is happening, and if this is what should happen or not.

[turetzsr 0]

<snip>So both of you really should have used Verio as that is your email provider.

How is that? How can a person reading that "hotmail.com" might be refered to as "Hotmail" deduce from that that her own domain "is refered to simply as Verio"?

<snip>

...You misunderstood, I believe. IIUC:

• The "simply" part means you may use "Hotmail" rather than "Hotmail.com" to refer to your e-mail provider (that's if you are a Hotmail e-mail user).
  
• StevenUnderwood deduced that piper56 knew her/his ISP was Verio from:

  A call to the ISP (Verio) confirms ...

Not that the word "mailhost" is precisely defined anywhere in that page or in the page leading to it. <snip>

...Assuming that to be true (and I have no reason to doubt it), I don't understand why that should be a problem. I don't know how the "mailhost" thingy works, either. When I first tried it, it did not work perfectly (partly due to my own mistakes, partly due, I assume, from either incomplete mailhosts logic or because I needed an "exemption" or two). I think on the third try it finally worked. Did I get all worked up about it? No, because I read the caution that it was a beta test.

<snip>(What does "probe" mean? it's another undefined term used in some sticky post).

...Maybe it's just me but I had no problem with that term because of the context in which it's always used -- it's the e-mail that is sent back by SpamCop after one goes through the mailhosts configuration (I think). <g>

<snip>

I hope my comments don't sound too negative.

...Kinda, but so what? These seem to me to be reasonable concerns to raise. <g> Edited July 24, 2004 by turetzsr

[StevenUnderwood 0]

mailhost - a host (server) that handles your email.

Most of the time I delete most of the "internal Received" headers since they are of no use to an abuse team getting a complaint.

In doing so, you should not be using the spamcop system to report those spam messages. The rules clearly state to make no material changes to the spam message. You are breaking the rules you agreed to adhere to in order to use the system.

Some sites require even the email address be unmunged, while they also do notneed that information, it is their perrogative to request it and ignore reports that do not have the information.

[hadaso 0]

In doing so, you should not be using the spamcop system to report those spam messages.  The rules clearly state to make no material changes to the spam message.  You are breaking the rules you agreed to adhere to in order to use the system.

13822[/snapback]

Actually I looked in the past at the rules and they allowed quite more liberal alterations of the rules, such as decoding of base64 encoded MIME parts and munging of personal data within them.

Anyway I am certainly not making any material shanges to the spam. I actually don't touch the spam itself. The most that I dois undo some changes that are done by my system after the spam message is received (and the first "Received" header is recorded), so in effect it is only making the message closer to the original spam sent (such "changes that are done be "my" system are additional "Received" headers for some internal transfers, spamassassin data and some other data recorded in headers, and sometimes added "spam" warning added to the subject line which sometimes I'm too lazy to restore). Email forwarded by Spamgourmet or Sneakemail is very different from the original spam sent: they change original to and from heaers before forwarding. If I report spam that went thru these services I usually add an explanation to the spam report that the original address is recorded in a custom header (such as in X-sneakemail headers).

[turetzsr 0]

Actually I looked in the past at the rules and they allowed quite more liberal alterations of the rules, such as decoding of base64 encoded MIME parts and munging of personal data within them.

Anyway I am certainly not making any material shanges to the spam. I actually don't touch the spam itself. The most that I dois undo some changes that are done by my system after the spam message is received (and the first "Received" header is recorded), so in effect it is only making the message closer to the original spam sent (such "changes that are done be "my" system are additional "Received" headers for some internal transfers, spamassassin data and some other data recorded in headers, and sometimes added "spam" warning added to the subject line which sometimes I'm too lazy to restore).

...Careful! You are trying to define "material changes" to your specification but the definition of "material changes" to SpamCop is listed in SpamCop FAQ: Material changes to spam. Since SpamCop decides what is and is not appropriate in using its service, your (IMHO reasonable) definition isn't relevant.

[hadaso 0]

How is that? How can a person reading that "hotmail.com" might be refered to as "Hotmail" deduce from that that her own domain "is refered to simply as Verio"?...You misunderstood, I believe.

13821[/snapback]

That's exactly my point! that I misunderstood! I couldn't understand from the info supplied up to that point what is the significance of each piece of data: it turns out that it has no significance at all: I can make up any name I want for the "mailhost" entry and it would work. Another user of the same mailhost can make up another name (such as one can use "hotmail" and another can use "hotmail.com"). And the same for email addresses: only one is needed, in order to send a email message to test the mailhost (the mailhost probe). It doesn't matter which one, as long as the mail server accepts email for that address (what happens if there is more than one IP address for that address? such as when the mail service changes IP for the mailserver once in a while?)

I think that there should be a short explanation of the process the user would go through before it is started: such as telling: "for each email host, you would be asked to supply a descriptive name, and one email address that the mailhost probe can use to send email directly to that mailhost. The system would send a test email to the address you supply, and you would have to confirm it after receiving it."

Knowing in advance what you are expected to do helps, and also understanding that the email address is only needed to send a single message that goes directly to the server (I assume so that spamcop can use it to get the MX records and any info it can gaet from the SMtP session or from the headers in the test mail sent) . Just this would have avoided all of the questions about "why aern't all my email addresses listed?" Actually I don't understand why spamcop needs to list even a single address, that is then available to any other user of the same host that happens to use the mailhosts system.

Edited July 26, 2004 by hadaso

[turetzsr 0]

That's exactly my point! that I misunderstood! I couldn't understand from the info supplied up to that point what is the significance of each piece of data: it turns out that it has no significance at all: I can make up any name I want for the "mailhost" entry and it would work. Another user of the same mailhost can make up another name (such as one can use "hotmail" and another can use "hotmail.com"). And the same for email addresses: only one is needed, in order to send a email message to test the mailhost (the mailhost probe). It doesn't matter which one, as long as the mail server accepts email for that address (what happens if there is more than one IP address for that address? such as when the mail service changes IP for the mailserver once in a while?)

I think that there should be a short explanation of the process the user would go through before it is started: such as telling: "for each email host, you would be asked to supply a descriptive name, and one email address that the mailhost probe can use to send email directly to that mailhost. The system would send a test email to the address you supply, and you would have to confirm it after receiving it."

Knowing in advance what you are expected to do helps, and also understanding that the email address is only needed to send a single message that goes directly to the server (I assume so that spamcop can use it to get the MX records and any info it can gaet from the SMtP session or from the headers in the test mail sent) . Just this would have avoided all of the questions about "why aern't all my email addresses listed?" Actually I don't understand why spamcop needs to list even a single address, that is then available to any other user of the same host that happens to use the mailhosts system.

13988[/snapback]

...How about dbiel's reply in thread "Multiple E-mail Addresses, Same Host"? Or is something more (or less) needed?

...And how about the following from Pinned: Delays, Waivers, Explanations:

One thing to understand about this system (if you care) is that these mailhost configurations are *shared*. So that once I adapt mailhost X to use strange domains a b and c, anyone else on mailhost X should be recognized without anyone having to do anything special. So that's why you see things change in your own mailhost pages - as other users add more detail to those entries. Anyway, you can file that under "too much information" - nothing you need to be aware of as a user. Suffice it to say, it's designed to adapt to each provider's specific config, and provide an escalation proceedure (waiver request/auth) when the config can't be recognized automatically.

...Sometimes it is hard to find those nuggets in all the "stuff" around here .... <g>

[hadaso 0]

...How about dbiel's reply in thread "Multiple E-mail Addresses, Same Host"?  Or is something more (or less) needed?

...And how about the following from Pinned: Delays, Waivers, Explanations:

...Sometimes it is hard to find those nuggets in all the "stuff" around here .... <g>

13990[/snapback]

Perhaps the mailhosts setup page should send the user to "read the whole forum and try to figure out how this works". The pinned post of Julian is mainly about some of his work being delayed or something. It;s not something a user needs to read to understand what process she is going into. With all the pinned topics and all the unpinned topics, the user still needs to gather and analize a lot of information in order to understand the simple facts that:

1. It doesn't matter what name you choose for your mailhost. You can call it Bill.

2. The email address is needed only so one email message sent by spamcop would go directly to that host. And that info should be in the explanation of the process in the same page that collects this info )mailhost name and email address) or in a faq entry linked to from that page, and not scattered around the forum, even if as comments inside pinned posts.

I didn't get past step one, because I had no idea what my mailhost is called (among several possible names), no idea which of the countless number of email addresses I can use on that host I should provide (I certainly cannot provide all of them manually), and no idea how I break up the collection of those email addresses into "accounts" (the term used on that page): does an account equal a single email address? Do all addresses on my own domain hosted by my email provider count as one account? or maybe each subdomain used count as a separate account? Do these count as the same acount as the addresses I use that are in the email provider's domains? Do different aliases or subdomains I use on my provider's domains count as different accounts or as one account? So many questions, and all irrelevant, because although the word "account is used several ties in trying to explain what is needed, it is completely irrelevant to the process, which just needs to be given one email address, it doesn't matter which one, that would have the MX records resolve to one of that provider's servers. All this confusion can be avoided by a very short description of what the mailhost probe does (what info it collects and how). But it should be right there on the main mailhosts page!

[Wazoo 0]

http://forum.spamcop.net/forums/index.php?...indpost&p=13081

http://forum.spamcop.net/forums/index.php?...indpost&p=13430

http://forum.spamcop.net/forums/index.php?...indpost&p=12696

http://forum.spamcop.net/forums/index.php?...indpost&p=11865

http://forum.spamcop.net/forums/index.php?...indpost&p=11816

http://forum.spamcop.net/forums/index.php?...indpost&p=11305

http://forum.spamcop.net/forums/index.php?...findpost&p=9792

http://forum.spamcop.net/forums/index.php?...findpost&p=6909

http://forum.spamcop.net/forums/index.php?...findpost&p=5327

just a few previous comments dealing with the history of the mail-hosts thing, desires for a FAQ, and other miscellaneous commentary about the way things seem so difficult for some ....

[dbiel 0]

why spamcop needs to list even a single address, that is then available to any other user of the same host that happens to use the mailhosts system.

That is a wrong assumption.

The email address that you post (use) is not available to anyother user.

Your individual SpamCop account will contain one or more entries that are made up of:

1) your email address

2) the mailhost name

The other two fields: Host/Domains and Relaying IP's are are part of a common sharred database using the Relational link of "mailhost name"

Without the email address it would be imposible to send the probe.

It also lets you know what mailhost name your varrious email addresses are using.

[StevenUnderwood 0]

If you know database work at all, you need a unique field to relate to your account. Your email address is that field.