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Armorbeast

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Steven

I have an art site and have been getting notices of failed delivery for some time now in particular from one of my admin.I spoke with her about it and she's furious because these are not spam,they are notifications of replys to comments in the forums and in most cases they were actually started by her.I also have recieved failure notices for a few other members...mind you,these are instant notifications of comment replys and I get the failure notices because its my site.

Now,I did notice the hostility of some commentors here in the past which is why I did not register or complain before.The bitter irony is that I have joined in with friends on Yahoo and MSN to fight spamming....strange isn't it lol.I know how hostile people can be on this issue,but I also know how hostile they can be when a legitimate claim of innocence is made.We have only recently begun posting a newsletter and its a slow process,but I know its not the newsletter because this has been going on for some time now and only a few members are having a problem...none want the auto mailings from the site blocked and if this is going to be a problem I can assure you that we can be as against spamcop as we are spam itself~the pathway to hell is lined with good intentions,lets not let this be one of them since we are essentially on the same side and anyone not wishing to be alerted from our site can simply mark so in their preferences and they won't recieve our instant mailings.

But the rejection notifications I'm getting now list spamcop as the reason why they were rejected because we are listed on your blacklist...I can understand the need for your service and support it,but we are not spamming people,we sell nothing on our site and we don't even have any ads on our site let alone our email mailings or even our newsletter.

I believe this to be in error as we do not belong on a spam blacklist...and anyone who feels we should be can come by my site,check the preferences and notice that you can block our mailings yourself in the preferences!So if a complaint was lodged,then its due to the ignorence of those who raised the complaint,but so far of all the people active on my site not one has admitted to making the complaint and all acknowledge that they understand about the preferences!

Thank you...my site is Dreamslayerartworks...anti spam/pro anti spamming!!!

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Steven

I have an art site and have been getting notices of failed delivery for some time now in particular from one of my admin.I spoke with her about it and she's furious because these are not spam,they are notifications of replys to comments in the forums and in most cases they were actually started by her.

...

Thank you...my site is Dreamslayerartworks...anti spam/pro anti spamming!!!

16897[/snapback]

Does your site verify that the email address given is wishful to receive these "notifications", eg will a mistype send dozens of messages to a completely uninvolved person who naturally reports them as spam ?

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PS...We don't send any mail to non members,so this had to be one of our registered members or some overzealous nimrod trying to cause us problems.I think that before you add someone to your list that it should be examined first to see what the nature of the complaint is and if this really is a matter of spamming...in our case it clearly wasn't and yet some complaint got us on this list.

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We get these replys direct from only a few members Steven...I have checked the ip addresses and they are for these members so if someone else is getting them I have heard nothing from them.Its an automated process and sends the notifications direct to the ip address and no one else.If it were going to non members who don't want the notifications or even members that don't,I would recieve failed delivery notifications from these people...but I'm not,just members who want them.

Edited by Armorbeast

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But the rejection notifications I'm getting now list spamcop as the reason why they were rejected because we are listed on your blacklist...I can understand the need for your service and support it,but we are not spamming people,we sell nothing on our site and we don't even have any ads on our site let alone our email mailings or even our newsletter.

I believe this to be in error as we do not belong on a spam blacklist...and anyone who feels we should be can come by my site,check the preferences and notice that you can block our mailings yourself in the preferences!So if a complaint was lodged,then its due to the ignorence of those who raised the complaint,but so far of all the people active on my site not one has admitted to making the complaint and all acknowledge that they understand about the preferences!

Thank you...my site is Dreamslayerartworks...anti spam/pro anti spamming!!!

16897[/snapback]

This would be easier if you provided the bounce message you are receiving or the IP you believe is listed. This information is provided in the Pinned FAQ in these forums along with lots of other useful information.

Assumptions:

Your outgoing email (that is being blocked) comes from the same host that your incoming email goes to. This is not always the case but because it is listed, I will assume this is valid in this case.

mail.dreamslayerartworks.com internet address = 66.235.197.114

host 66.235.197.114 = st03.startlogic.com

Because the rDNS does not match the domain name of your site, I will assume you are sharing that mail server with other oganizations, one of which could be causing all the problems and you are "innocent bystanders" in this problem.

All of the following receive the spam reports for this IP address: abuse[at]above.net,

abuse[at]ipowerweb.com, abuse[at]gblx.net .

From: http://mailsc.spamcop.net/w3m?action=check...=66.235.197.114

66.235.197.114 listed in bl.spamcop.net (127.0.0.2)

Causes of listing

System has sent mail to SpamCop spam traps in the past week (spam traps are secret, no reports or evidence are provided by SpamCop)

SpamCop users have reported system as a source of spam about 10 times in the past week

Listing History

In the past 92.9 days, it has been listed 2 times for a total of 5.8 days

Well this host has actual reports from members of spamcop. These reports are normally sent to the addresses I listed above. You should check with them as to what those reports are for. Sometimes, if the site is listed for other reasons, spamcop users will accidently report email they have requested. That is their error and will be given a warning if your ISP brings this to the attention of the deputies with proof that the reporter did request the information.

This site also has spamtrap reports. As stated in the above message, spamtraps are addresses which are seeded into various websites around the world to be picked up by spammers seeking email addresses to spam. Most of us in this forum, being normal spamcop users, do not have the ability to see the messages sent to the spamtraps. If you are the administrator of that IP address, contact deputies<at>spamcop.net to get a little more information as to what has been received by the spamtrap address. Some causes of spamtrap hits are listed in the FAQ referenced earlier.

The first place to start asking questions should probably be your ISP. They should be able to determine by the spamcop reports and/or discussions with the deputies about the spamtrap reports, whether it is your site causing the problem. If not, request to be moved to another server as you are being affected by another of their customers. If it is your site causing the reports, going through the FAQ will give the reasons for blocking and some resolutions to those problems. You should also be able to work through the problem with your ISP.

Good luck and please keep us infomed as to your progress.

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We get these replys direct from only a few members Steven...I have checked the ip addresses and they are for these members so if someone else is getting them I have heard nothing from them.Its an automated process and sends the notifications direct to the ip address and no one else.If it were going to non members who don't want the notifications or even members that don't,I would recieve failed delivery notifications from these people...but I'm not,just members who want them.

16900[/snapback]

1. in response to your previos post: Your messages may not be the cause of the listing. Please see my extensive post just above where it looks like you are sharing your mail server with others. If this is true, ANY of the other organizations has caused you this problem.

2. in response to this post: You are getting the bounce from any user that has employed (usually through their ISP) the spamcop blocklist to reject messages from servers on the list. Many other of your customers may not be getting your messages because they are being silently deleted or placed in held message bins with toms of other spam.

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So basically you're saying that I could be sharing this email server with up to a hundred others and if only one of these is a spammer we all get blacklisted?

Also that we could be blacklisted and not even know it because the messages are auto deleted rather than bounced??

I hope I'm reading this wrong as I would think that~

#1 Anyone added to your blacklist would be informed when the action was taken and

#2 That surely you wouldn't block everyone sharing a server because one person using the server was a spammer??

I recieved no such notification at any point unless it was "auto deleted" :blink: and I have already asked my server so unless they were dishonest,they report you have not informed them either.I also understand that under such circumstances we are supposed to be informed by law...if I am misinformed I would appreciate clarification.

I will go do some research on this,but I do not see how we could be blacklisted because of someone elses actions on the server nor be informed of it when the action was taken.As for the info,I will send you a pm because I will not share sensitive information in a public forum...now off to check the information you told me to look at.

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Ok,sent the pm with one of the bounced notifications....also,if this was a legitimate complaint,I will need the info of the complaint in order to address this properly with my server.If they know that there is a problem and are denying it I need the proof to show them...if it was a complaint about "my site",I also need to know the exact details about the complaint so that the validity of the complaint can be verified.

Anyone can make a complaint Steven...the question now is to determine if the complaint was a legitimate one and I need the info.Now back to checking the addys to see if I can find the info myself but will be back if I can't...because if this complaint was about my site I know its not legit.

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So basically you're saying that I could be sharing this email server with up to a hundred others and if only one of these is a spammer we all get blacklisted?

[snip]

16905[/snapback]

Spamcop does not list e-mail addresses, it lists IP addresses. So, if you are sharing an outgoing mail server with a spammer, your mail could bounce as well because the spammer has landed the mail server IP on a blocklist. This may seem draconian, but unfortunately, current technology combined with the tricks spammers play, allow no effective alternative. In addition, using such measures assures that ISPs that are lukewarm to fighting spam have no choice unless they want significant customer mail traffic rejected.

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To sum up here, you NEED to be discussing this with your ISP or email service provider. You sound like you do not have the authority for administering this server or IP address and that is where the problem lies. Spamcop will likely not provide you with any of the information you are requesting, simply because it is not your responsibility. The administrator has responsibility for ALL of its customers, the spamers and non-spammers, and the configurtion of its servers. If you are the administrator for the server and/or ISP, please contact the deputies here for more information.

I have addressed your points individually below.

So basically you're saying that I could be sharing this email server with up to a hundred others and if only one of these is a spammer we all get blacklisted?

Whether you are sharing a server with others, I can not tell you. You should know that information or contact your ISP.

If you are sharing a server with a spammer you will be blacklisted. This info is in the FAQ, but the IP address a message comes from is the only bit of information that a server knows is true when receiving an email message. From and Reply-to addresses are easily forged.

Also that we could be blacklisted and not even know it because the messages are auto deleted rather than bounced??

No. That if you are blacklisted (which you are) some of your messages are being deleted along the way because you are on the blacklist. That is the nature of email, it is not a guaranteed delivery system. Any server along the way can delete any message for any reason the administrator of that server sees fit.

I hope I'm reading this wrong as I would think that~

#1 Anyone added to your blacklist would be informed when the action was taken and

#2 That surely you wouldn't block everyone sharing a server because one person using the server was a spammer??

1. Any spam reports from spamcop were sent to the administrator for the IP in question. I listed the 3 addresses registered for this IP address.

2. There is no "finer comb" that can be used. As explained above, the IP address is the only non forgable item a receiving server knows (because the sending server is not providing that information). If you are sharing an IP with a spammer, demand your ISP either take action to remove that spammer or provide you a spam free server. Otherwise, you are effectively supporting spammers by your inaction.

I have already asked my server

I assume you mean ISP or email host here.

I also understand that under such circumstances we are supposed to be informed by law...if I am misinformed I would appreciate clarification.

I don't know what law you are referring. Here in the US, there is no such law. Anyone is free to block any message on their personal property (the server) for any reason the owner sees fit. I could block your server becasue your domain contained an "a" if I wanted to.

Ok,sent the pm with one of the bounced notifications....also,if this was a legitimate complaint,I will need the info of the complaint in order to address this properly with my server

I received the message and I have correctly identified the server in question. The bounce you sent was not a complaint at all. It is the result of your IP address being on the spamcop BL. The info of the regular complaint was delivered to the three addresses mentioned previously. If they have deleted those messages, then I believe they can contact the deputies for the information again. The info for the spamtrap complaint is available, to the adminitrator of the server (does not sound like it is you) by contacting the deputies.

Anyone can make a complaint

Yes they can. An IP address does not get listed becaue of only one complaint. Spamcop uses a complex formula to determine when an IP is listed and for how long. This formula takes into account the type of report (spamtrap more than user), the amount of normal traffic seen from that IP (ratio of spam/non-spam), and the time since the last report.

the question now is to determine if the complaint was a legitimate one and I need the info.

For normal reports, that was up to the administrator who received the complaint from spamcop. They will have seen the entire message and have options to challenge the complaint. For spamtrap reports (which are much more serious, as there is no person associated with those addresses to request anything) the deputies can assist the administrator of the IP address in question.

if this complaint was about my site I know its not legit

That very well may be, but please listen to this scenario as it happens all the time. Other scenarios are also possible, but you have not provided any information about your setup.

Server is configured to send "bounces" (rather than rejections) to the "from" address for virus warnings or incorrect addresses. The virus or spam forged the "from" address to be the spamtrap address. Server dutifully bounces the message to the forged address. Spamcop receives the spam at the trap and lists the IP address. Now your customers, who want your message but also use spamcop to filter their messages have your message in their held mail folder. Without noticing your message, they report it as spam, causing regular complaints.

In this scenario, the administrator of the Server is wrong because they are sending bounces to incorrect locations, effectively spamming anyone who happens to be forged into the from address. Also, the spamcop reporter is wrong because it is their responsibility to confirm all reports they are sending.

Edited by StevenUnderwood

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I totally agree...but I also wish to point out that you don't throw the baby out with the dishwater lol.I am writing the addys you listed,I am contacting my server again,I am reading the info on this site that you suggested...but I again point out that if it turns out that this is in error then all of this is a needless hassle.

Basically from what I'm gleaming already,I could send a report about spam and if the organization I send it to agrees then it gets blacklisted...but what if the person determining this is the one causing the problem.I mention this as like I said I have an art site,I am also a member of other art sites and one of the #1 problems they have are that the admins and moderators often determine the TOS or rules their own way and works that do not violate the TOS get pulled,the artists are humiliated and in the end they get huge apologies in almost every case~happens all the time.

The MSN and Yahoo groups I belong to basically have the same problems as they make lists of spammers and we have found that most don't really understand the difference between spam and something they think is spam.If you get an unwanted email that in an of itself does not constitute spam,if you allow people to post links to their projects or endeavors then someone else posts something you disagree with...that is not spam because you allowed others to post such links of general interest on your site and if the members don't want to check it out then don't click the link.

The biggest problem we have been dealing with is the definition of spam...one member argued that when you get stuff in your postal box you don't call it spam and can ask your local post office to filter all that stuff out~she did that and they also filterred out some important documents she needed because they determined it was packaged like junk mail.

The problem I am now seeing in the service you offer is that you do not determine if anyone is at fault and by attacking the server you are doing the same as attacking the local post office because they put junk mail in our boxes...I agree with the fight against spam and I agree that the servers should be more aggressive in combatting it~however,I do not agree with blacklisting people who have done nothing wrong and if I learned anything about history its that blacklists are the tools of totalitarianism and hurting the innocent with the guilty often results in more innocent than guilty being harmed!!!I have yet to find anywhere where it says that spam is illegal and yet neither was communism or being a jew~they got blacklisted too and this whole experience has opened my eyes~I now consider that blacklisting is not as simple a matter as I had thought earlier when I heard others complaining that they had been falsely labelled as spammers.I would think that the burden of proof would not be on me...I think I argued my innocence clear enough and you reply that its the server thats to blame then.I disagree...unless you provide evidence of a crime being committed you have no right to take action,if in your eyes spamming is wrong then provide proof that spamming actually took place from the server rather than put the burden on those who were caught in the backwash of your actions to prove they have done nothing wrong.

What has me angry about this is that you say to have my email put on another server,but what if that one gets listed too??Also,I don't see how the server host can be made to take action if spamming isn't illegal??All I see is a report that could in fact be false,you blacklist my site without finding anything wrong being committed by anyone on my site and then say if one site gets reported for spam on a server that could have hundreds of legit sites that don't spam on it...all the sites should be blacklisted and the server host held accountable for not acting when in fact by law no crime has been committed!!??I think blacklisting can be effective if used properly,but when I asked for proof that my site was guilty of wrong then you reply it doesn't have to be my site...can be any site on the server for which I am not responsible and the server may not even legally have a right to take action against the guilty party because spamming isn't illegal :blink: :angry:

So,next question will come after I get the replys from the links you gave...they better provide me not only with general info,they better provide me with specifics of their report as I take this matter very seriously~its my sites reputation as well as my own at stake and I WILL NOT BE TREATED AS A CRIMINAL OR A LOW LIFE SPAMMER without someone providing me with the detailed specific information!!I hate spammers and I will not be classified in their number when nothing my site does is spam.I expected to get details from you or information...seems you don't even have that info,you got it from someone else and didn't require them to give you details to verify the truth in their actions before taking your own.Its insulting to be added to a spammers list and I think most of the loudest voices against spamming are probably from people who don't have their own sites or forums and thus don't understand how angry people like myself get to be blacklisted when we did nothing wrong!!!The server didn't blacklist me without proof of any wrong doing,spamcop did and I don't see a shred of evidence provided to justify the action...just a supposition that if I am not at fault it must be the server~no,if you take such action then you keep a record detailing why such action was taken and you send a warning to the people you list before taking such action!!

Sorry if I seem just a tad furious...I am an avid anti spam supporter and to be listed as a spammer for some boneheaded reason that can't even be specifically detailed or because another site on a server that could include hundreds of sites for all I know~man this is just the ultimate insult and has made me totally review everything I believe about my own stand against spamming because I do not agree with any policy that brands anyone of being guilty of a crime they didn't commit when you have no proof that a crime had even been committed and their innocence itself is really not in question!!!Thats ludicrous!!

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So basically you're saying that I could be sharing this email server with up to a hundred others and if only one of these is a spammer we all get blacklisted?

Also that we could be blacklisted and not even know it because the messages are auto deleted rather than bounced??

I hope I'm reading this wrong as I would think that~

#1 Anyone added to your blacklist would be informed when the action was taken and

#2 That surely you wouldn't block everyone sharing a server because one person using the server was a spammer??

Actually you are reading it correctly.

The problem is that there is no way to determine who is send spam other than the IP address that it is comming from, which unfortunately leaves us with two choices. 1) block the IP and everyone spammer or not gets block. or 2) don't block it and put up with the spam.

If you can come up with a better way, I am sure we would all be interested.

The fact is spamming hurts everyone.

By the way Armorbeast, thanks for your initial post, it was presented very well.

A few more points to consider in reply to your additional posts.

1) No mail server is ever blocked from send email (spam or not) by any BL (SpamCop or otherwise) PERIOD. It is not done, It can NOT be done.

2) The receipient of email has the right to refuse to accept any mail they do not want to receive.

3) It is the receipient of email and/or their ISP who is sick and tired of spam that have chosen to block mail using various Blocking Lists that are available. This is their right. (You may have a right to send, but you do not have a right to force others to receive)

4) SpamCopBL is just one of many such lists. SpamCop does NOT recommend using its list to actually block mail but rather suggests that it be used to flag mail as potential spam. But the fact is many do use it to block mail, but again that is their choice and their right to do so.

5) The SpamCopBL is probably the most aggressive in adding IP's to its list, but at the same time it is the easiest to get IP's taken off the list (no special action or request is need to be taken off the SpamCopBL, it is automatic). As long as no email is recieved by SpamCop spamtraps and no reports by users that they have received what they determine to be spam, are filed in a 48hour period the IP is automaticly removed from the list. PS it takes more than one report to be added to the list, it is a very complex formula.

6) Nobody is forced to use the SpamCopBL. It is provided as a FREE service and is made available to anybody who would like to use it to reduce the spam that they are receiving.

Edited by dbiel

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It goes back to the <<spam trap>> issue Steven has raised earlier. If it was spam traps that generated the listings no reports were sent.

What triggers the occasional sarcasm here is when people fail to provide the data that would assist us in pinning down the complaint. That too is understandable, we are not born with that knowledge. However, we (the users of this forum) are simple SpamCop users and most, like myself, self-taught and only here because we had to deal with spam and landed here. I understand why Armor would be frustrated and impatient, what I do not understand is why he/she would jump to ungrounded conclusions. Also his/her anger prevented him/her from grasping the finer points so well summarized by Steven.

I am also puzzled why this is not a new thread, as it has no connection to what was originally started other than Armor being frustrated by a blocked message. If Armor took the necessary steps and read the pinned FAQ's before posting, he/she would have known that it was when his/her e-mail was sent to another provider that generated that bounce by that provider (ISP), not by SpamCop. It is also evident from reading the information pinned in the FAQ's that more often than not, these bounces erronously link the block to SpamCop. As such, his/her anger is misdirected.

Edited by dra007

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Since there has been no evidence presented as to specifically why your IP was listed (acquired from the administrator of your IP address) everything I have said prior to this point and below could be completely inaccurate. I am only able to make logical guesses at to what MIGHT have happened. Please keep that in mind.

I again point out that if it turns out that this is in error then all of this is a needless hassle.

It is never a needless hassle if you determine your host is spammy and you either get them to change their ways or move to someone who can provide what you need for your business (a clean IP address).

spam is not defined by the content of the message. It is defined by the consent of the recipient to receive the message from the sender.

Also,I don't see how the server host can be made to take action if spamming isn't illegal??

While it may not be"illegal" to spam, it is almost always against the Terms of Service (TOS) agreed to in the hosting agreement. What a spamcop report is doing is asking the hosts to enforce that TOS to whatever degree the host deems reasonable. It is making a complaint to the local police about the neighbors dog barking too loud. It is up to the police (hosts abuse desk) to investigate and see if any laws have been broken.

If it is not your site causing the reports, then it is your responsibility to move to a clean neighborhood or to take the neighborhood back from the spammers.

You will NOT find any specific evidence on the spamcop pages. That information has been removed because the spammers were using it to "time" when they could start using a specific host again. Your Host has the informaton or can get it from spamcop. Whether they do or not will show you how THEY feel about spam on their network.

I am done in this conversation as you do not seem to comprehend that it is your ISP (Host) that is the ONLY one who can help you if you are not the administrator of tht IP address. Others here may decide to step in if you confirm some of the assumptions I have made.

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As pointed out, this discussion had no direct correlation to the Topic first posted into, other than being an issue of one user being upset about the consequences of seeing his/her e-mail being blocked by another ISP that is using the SpamCop DNSbl in the tool-set of anti-spam traffic control. So, yes, I agree and did split thus user's Topic into its own discussion. Original poster has been notified via PM.

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I am done in this conversation as you do not seem to comprehend that it is your ISP (Host) that is the ONLY one who can help you if you are not the administrator of tht IP address. Others here may decide to step in if you confirm some of the assumptions I have made.

I'd say you did much more than make assumptions. It's too bad that I don't see the same level of effort from the original poster, most of that effort apparently being tryung to convince any and all that he/she does not spam .. but from all appearances thus far, ignoring all the details provided. There still seems to be a problem in the concepts of IP addresses, web-sites, hosting services, e-mail transactions between ISPs and even the use of SpamCop reporting and the DNSbl .... I see that you have definitely tried <g>

Armorbeast, you started out on the right track, but appear to have lost sight of the actual situation. First of all, the "Internet" is no longer a U.S. Government/Military experiment. It is out there in the real worled, used and abused by all kinds of folks for all kinds of intents and purposes. Your ISP/hosting service provides you the gateway into/out of this real world thing, and these folks have their goals and mission statements .. it may be "make all the money you can" or it might be "make out user's experience the best it can be" ...

You've been complaining that you've been painted as a spammer. No one here can make that comment, and hasn't made that comment, that I can recall in skimming over this Topic. You seem not to have yet grasped that the SpamCopDNSbl does not do a "you" thing .. it's only a listing of IP addresses of stuff seen as spam .. and that other ISPs use the resulting list as a decision point of whether to allow that traffic into their systems and into their user's Inboxes. (Once again, try looking at the FAQ "here" .. there's an entry suggesting an analogy of a Credit Reporting Agency for instance.)

You can continue making those long posts expressing your thoughts if you want, but .... thus far, you've not gotten down to the rel specifics. Steven has gone far in attempting to hand-hold you a bit, but if you're not going to actually do your own research to get to the facts of your specific situation, then provide these specifics as part of your query such that someone can actually take a look at things and possibly respond with specifics ... this could either go on for a long time or others will choose to simply ignore your situation also ....

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To begin,the members I speak of who do not recieve the emails they are supposed to recieve have told me that they have tried to correct the situation on their end and still are not recieving the emails.And no I am not missing the point...you guys are the ones who put my site on a blacklist so I expect to know why.You say for me to post the evidence here in the forums,I sent one of the bounced pm's to SteveUnderwood by email and there was no reply.You fail to understand...you are the ones who blacklisted my site and all I ask is for a reason why~you say that if one site on a server that has many sites is a spammer,you choose to ban them all as the best option.

Thus,I have every right to be angry with your choice being that my site is not spamming...you lump me in with people I consider to be grimy filth and yet you expect me to sit back and listen to your logic...not hardly!!You say you've held my hand to explain and you're tired...and yet,you guys probably put out more spam than my site ever will and you have the gall to say that I deserve this???

Again I ask a simple question...I change servers and theres a spammer there,you block it~what then,go to another server that could also have a spammer on it??

Explain to me the law in regards to what spammers are doing...exactly where does it say that what they do is illegal?There may have been legal decisions made in regards to abuse...but you have not even addressed it from that pov!Neither have you as yet even proven there's a spammer on that server or that even if they have sent out a few spam emails,their actions are so grossly over the top that you can justify slamming every site on that server!

What if its someone who send out what someone considers to be spam but that the rest of us don't??Then the fact that they don't know who made the complaint comes into play...everyone has their own definition of spam and if just one person thinks something is spam and continues to complain,should that deprive the rest of us of recieving the email when we don't consider it spam??

What I asked for was an evaluation of my situation and was told to go talk to my server host...I already did that before even coming here and they don't know whats going on basically.Again,you guys are the ones who put my site on this list even if it was reported to you from someone else...there should be a system in place to verify that what you get is legit and if there is a spammer on my server,tell me who they are so I can directly confront my server host with something other than "well spamcop said to ask you"!You think this is frustrating on your end...look at it from my pov!!

I have a site,its been added to a blacklist,there's no proof given or even an explanation for my specific case except to go look at the faq's which only speak of this in a general non specific matter.When I ask about my site in specific all I get are "I dunno" ,"go ask your server" and so on...you have put me in a helpless position in regard to details specific to my site being blacklisted and because of that it seems as if you are doing this maliciously!

It is not right to blacklist every site on a server so that legit sites will put pressure on their servers to do something more about spamming...if its not illegal then what can they do except violate the legal rights of these people to put out this garbage!!That in turn puts the question on you about the legality of putting people on a blacklist that could do financially irreperable harm to them when they themselves have done nothing wrong!You may feel you have the right or maybe its not illegal because so much is not illegal on the internet that would be otherwise...but that brings up the issue of moral right.

But in the end,the real issue here is that you make your money representing consumers not site owners...problem is,many of the members I speak of are site owners and they pay you to protect them from spam~they don't like the fact that you could do to them what you're doing to me.Again I ask...how would you feel if instead of blacklisting us we blacklisted you and caused people to lose trust in your service?Thats what you're doing to us...and there are a lot of free alternatives to spamcop now being offered by ISP's themselves~they don't need to pay for this type of service and if you don't address issues like this now you will hurt yourselves in the long run.

Again,I am not pro spam and as for the reason my posts are so long...I view myself as a victim here and you're basically trying to justify it while admitting I'm guilty of nothing~how would you react to that!!I ask for specifics,you have no specific answers to share so I can deal with this...you could at least see the logic in verufying if I am the offender or not,tell me who it is when you determine I am innocent and let me go after these sumbitches myself on my sever host!!If you want me to put pressure on my server host to do something...give me something to do it with other than "I dunno"!!!Is that too much to ask!?

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Oh and yeah,I spoke directly to my admins server and I just recieved a reply

"WE do not blacklist anyone in any fashion and we haven't the slightest idea why you were told to contact us on this issue.WE do however employ lists provided to us from outside partys to determine our selection of who to add to our blocked senders list,but we do not however collect the information ourselves and we do offer to our clients the option to add anyone else to their blocked senders list that they prefer.

We are sorry for any inconvenience this has caused to you and your enterprise,we have spoken to the client in question and we have removed your sites name from our list of blocked senders after reviewing the circumstances of your request.

We do not understand the reasoning as to why your site was added to this list if it was not in violation of any policy set forth to determine unwanted spam mailings...we will consider more carefully in the future whom we add to our list and from whom we recieve such information if the case as you presented to us is accurate.Again,we are sorry for this inconvenience and offer to you a free months service with us if you make the switch to ..........."

Anyway,you get the picture.I got one ISP to remove us from their blocked servers list and in the process I would imagine whoever that spammer is will now have full access to this ISP if what you say is true...but I am not writing to every ISP host that my members choose,I'm just going to inform everyone who uses your service to contact me and have them do it...so in the end if what you say is true you have achieved nothing save for making one person extremely angry with you who actually supports your fight against spam~I just didn't know what your policy was before on this and think that if you believe this is a better way...then you need to think again.

Tell me who the spammer on my server is...there is no law that says my server can't put known spammers on one server to protect the rest of their clients~but I need to know who it is first if its up to me to do this on my own and they have the right to verify on their own that these people are indeed guilty~you should act as a reporting agency,some of us actually do have better ideas for dealing with spam and maybe our ideas are better than yours.

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I sent one of the bounced pm's to SteveUnderwood by email and there was no reply

The reply was placed within the rather detailed explanation I provided after receiving your message. And from that post:

I received the message and I have correctly identified the server in question. The bounce you sent was not a complaint at all. It is the result of your IP address being on the spamcop BL.

I do not reply to PM's in general, especially as this forum is here to also help future people with problems who actually read and try to understand them. Reading your response, you are still out in left field on this issue. It sounds like you asked the wrong questions of your ISP. Re-read everything SLOWLY and try to remember who is blocked (your server) and who is using the blocklist (your recipients ISP's).

Edited by StevenUnderwood

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I'm going to follow in StevenUnderwood's wake. .... You can take your "you all" stuff elsewhere. As I stated in my last, you and apparently whoever your experts are simply haven't gotten your story and fine points together. You keep talking of a "site being blocked" .... There is no supporting evidence of a "site being blocked" ....

You say you PM'd Steven but got no response .... I read a response that the data you PM'd him was the same as what he'd already taken the time to research on his own given that you wouldn't provide it. I have folks PMing me all the time and they get just as upset as you seem to be when I state that I am not here to provide one on one support via PM ... this is an open and public Forum. And as in your case, why the hell spend time going through PMs when most of the answers already exist right here in the FAQ or existing Topics that contain other discussions that cover the same ground?

I can see no evidence that you've taken any time at all to try to educate yourself on what SpamCop is, how it is used, or even how other ISPs use it. Even your last "talking directly to my admins server" (that had to be fun to watch) .. and their answer dealing with something called a "blocked-senders list" occurring directly after "we don't blacklist anyone in any fashion" ... please tell me that you cannot fail to see the problem in that painted picture .... and yet you'd expect someone "here" to try to figure out what game is being played by whom?

"We do not understand the reasoning as to why your site was added to this list" .. again, the problem of "your site" as compared to the SpamCopDNSbl operations that deal with the IP address of an e-mail server, which thus far has been defined as "your site" is NOT "the e-mail server" in question.

I don't know where your money making ideas are coming from, but .... I'm not making a dime sitting here trying to get you to open yor eyes. And you're right, spending your time trying to get 100's or thousands of other ISPs to accept e-mail from your server is a silly waste of effort ... when all it would take is for your e-mail server folks to fix the problem and get the server unlisted ...

some of us actually do have better ideas for dealing with spam and maybe our ideas are better than yours.

Put them into play.

Unlike StevenUnderwood, as a (volunteer) Moderator, I am forced to continue to read your stuff. Like Steven, you have worn out your welcome and used up your allotment of my "special" attention. You've been offered help, guidance, specifics, references ... but basically, from your responses, you like typing away rather than doing actual knowledge building ... I'm not here for that. Good luck!

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All of the following receive the spam reports for this IP address: abuse[at]above.net,

abuse[at]ipowerweb.com, abuse[at]gblx.net .

It must be pointed out that any of the above servers is notorious for spamming and/or dealing with spam as a simple google search will reveal:

1. For example above.net refuses reports of spam designed to protect the reporter:

Re: 69.6.6.73 (Administrator of network where email originates)

To: abuse[at]above.net (refuses munged reports) (Notes) tes)

http://cpaempire.com/[..]/[..]/[..]... (Administrator of network hosting website referenced in spam)

[..]

To: abuse[at]above.net (refuses munged reports) (Notes)

Re: http://e10.tekmailer.com/[..]superdeals.0-... (Administrator of network hosting website referenced in spam)

[..]

To: abuse[at]above.net (refuses munged reports) (Notes)

2. Here is yet another example of spam spewed from ipowerweb:

/snip

boundary="=_NextPart_000_000G_46C20XP1_7533N4288"

Message-Id: <E1B9M6v-0001k7-00[at]host04.ipowerweb.com>

/snip

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

optima preponderant tetrachloride linden sandburg fermentation

3. and finally the last one in the list is awful when it comes to spam.

So there we go, it boils down that relying on an ISP that is irresposible about spam has a price. I report quite a few spams from any of them on a daily basis as I suspect any conciencious SpamCop user does and will continue to do. As long as we get spam from them they will rest on the block list. RIP.

Edited by dra007

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My point guys is that I do understand that its not you doing the blocking and said so in my last reply...but you supply the info that they use to make this decision.On another site I actually had a former server administrator explain to me that you guys are a reporting agency...you yourselves do not take blocking actions but you do provide the information they use to make their decisions and if that information is false or incorrect it is not their responsibility to verify.She told me that if you are the agency relaying the information then it is your responsibility to verify it...how simple is that.You don't burn the witches...you just provide the information used to justify it.

I might also point out how frustrating this has been for me,I am an ardent anti spammer so to be falsely accused to me is the ultimate insult!I do not care about policies,I do not care about spammers...what I care about and my immediate concern was finding out how I got on that list and how to get off it.My frustration was made worse by your saying to contact my server when they had no idea what I was talking about and trying to explain to me how you don't block anyone...I understood but got angrier because I wanted information as to how we got on this because if we actually did do something misconstrued as spam I need to know and since you gathered the info you're the only ones who would know where I could begin looking to find out.There's no exemption on this so we could go on this report again in the future and I don't even know how we got on it this time except that maybe it was someone else on the server.You gave me no specific answers...nothing I could use to find out and yet you are the ones who gathered the info.Even if you don't have specifics,surely you have a record of where the info came from right?I don't want who made the complaint...I only want to know the agency who reported it to you and feel we have a right to know,to find out how this happened so if the fault was ours we could avoid it again...and if we have a member who falsely accused us,that member will be banned from our site after all this garbage!

As for personal attacks...I don't see anywhere where I called you or anyone here in specific a name or expressed a direct comment of anger.For you to lose your cool and make this personal with your smartass remarks was uncalled for...you think I missed your point,well buddy you missed mine cause you are the one supplying them the info~you set this in motion regardless if it was just a nameless IP address,you lumped everyone on that server together and made no effort to give us or our server a chance to avoid this....now if you did alert our server then fault is theirs for not acting or informing us~but don't recall you saying you did that,you just slapped the number on a list and sent it out.If I'm wrong I'm wrong but after your last reply I really don't care!!

The only one here keeping their head while everyone else lost theirs is dra007...and yet,I ask you if you were running an honest site and someone did this to you wouldn't you be furious even to the point of blind fury???Maybe you do report these things,but as an honest site owner shouldn't I be given access to this information so we can work together to resolve a mutual problem???I mean the goal here is to stamp out spam...not to persecute the innocent with the guilty right??You say you report these things daily because of irresponsible server hosts...but are they doing anything illegal by not doing what you want???I don't know what the other sites on my server are doing...but trust me,if given even half a chance I would have been all over my server to avoid this happening and instead I'm all over you guys for doing this to me!!!

No legitimate site wants to be falsely labelled a spammer and many share your views about spam...but what if one of your site watchers reports sites they don't like or abuses the system you have set up,I read and if I missed anything in your faq and so on that says you protect sites and fellow members from this,please point it out!!From the comments I got here it doesn't matter how the report comes in...you'll add the site to your list.

Again...yes I know you don't blacklist anyone so do not repeat that accusation again...but again,you provide the info to those who do and there should be a process for verifying that the complaint is legit before doing so!!

If you think I'm giving you nothing but headaches,I want you to imagine me doing this to my server instead!!If you had a better system in place that turns people sharing servers into allys rather than insulting them by putting them on your damn list as spammers~just imagine the success you might achieve!!But for all your good intent,you are the ones listed on the bounced pm's as being responsible for the information...once you falsely accuse someone like me of something I am innocent of you will damn sure have a fight on your hands.I served six months in jail for a crime I didn't have any knowledge of in 1989 and my mother just died recently...this was the absolute worst time for this matter to pop up and the wrong person for it to happen to!!If given even half a chance...I guarantee you that any future complaints about spamming from my server will result in my server host getting one hell of a beating as I don't care about facts that mean nothing to me~what means something to me is that I will not be falsely labelled as guilty either by someone who falsely labels me as such because all they have is a number and a lot of I dunnos or becasue of some scum bag who is gonna get me in trouble by association because we share a server.Rethink your policy...at least from the view of trying to inform others on the server about what may be about to happen!!Also,until spamming is actually made illegal,stop persecuting these people and anyone caught in the backwash...segregating them to a server that can be blocked by spam services like spamcop is the way to deal with it and you won't achieve that with this "blame them all" response...I for one have other ideas for dealing with spam that would be far more effective and if they don't work then by god we find new ways to attack it until something works without victimising everyone else in the process!!

I will warn you...if you want me to stop replying then lock this thread...all thats emerging from it is anger and frustration but no answers!!!I got hold of a different person representing technical support on my server host while ago and they will be contacting you even if it will take up to 48 hours to get us off this list.Mark my name and my site...if this happens again in the future give me a warning as I am not against you or your goals,I am thoroughly pissed that you put my site on that list and I assure you I would rather attack the spammer than attack you guys~but by god you put me on a list with these son of a bitches and then provide no info on how you got the report,you're damn straight I'll attack you because no one does that to me when I'm innocent~but likewise,I can turn this anger at the server just as easily if its "before" being added to a spam list!!IIts a crying shame that this is all you can do...the courts protect the spammers by in large because what they do is no different than people who send you sales papers by mail courier...but it is also quite legal to ask my post office to prune my junk mail and I do that with my isp in regards to spam!The key point is that virtually all the junk mail I get is from the actual merchant or local source and even at that I get one circular from each...most spammers are not merchants nor do they even have the product in their possession~therein lay one essential difference that should be a focal point for the "legal" battle against spam.Th e greatest irony is that the spammers are now using services like spamcop in their defence,you are there to protect us against spam so why is there a need for legislation to stop spam~and the legislators are agreeing with that argument now from what I've found online about this subject.So the very fact that you exist can now be used as a tool by spammers to fight legislation against them...so you in turn have to get smarter to take these smug son of a bitches down and the tactic that caught my site in the backwash is not the way to do it.

You guys get me wrong...I do respect you and what you stand for,you just misunderstood my pov and provided guesses and dunnos when I wanted answers or at least specifics for finding out how this happened so I can take action to prevent it happening again.

Now be a good gent and lock the thread...I assure you future contact between us will be more civil but there's too much frustration and anger here and whether you accept it we all contributed to one anothers hostility when in fact we should be working together!

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You still seem to be missing the major points we are trying to make.

First, NO one is accusing you of being a spammer.

Second. Your "site" has never been listed and will never be listed on the SpamCop BL as web sites are never listed. Only IP addresses are listed.

If we accept as fact that your email's are being blocked because the IP address you are using is on the SpamCop BL. then it is up to the owner of the IP address to address the problem.

You have chosen to use the IP address you are using based on your own reasons.

But in reality you probably did not give it that much thought as to the possible results of chosing one IP address over another IP address.

A possible example might be if you wanted to invest some money in the stock market (send email) and you hand your money over to an unknown stranger (your ISP) and that stranger takes your money and the money of many other individuals and invests some of it in illegal activities (spam, -not to say that spam is illegal) and the government shuts down all of his investments because of the illegal activities, why would you blame the government because you can no longer send more of your money to that trusted stranger (ISP) to invest it for you.

The point is that you are trusting a 3rd party to deliver you mail but that 3rd party is causing other people problems by delivery tons of spam so they have chosen to stop accepting mail from that 3rd party.

I am also going to repost some material that may help you to better understand what is actually going on.

1) No mail server is ever blocked from send email (spam or not) by any BL (SpamCop or otherwise) PERIOD. It is not done, It can NOT be done.

2) The receipient of email has the right to refuse to accept any mail they do not want to receive.

3) It is the receipient of email and/or their ISP who is sick and tired of spam that have chosen to block mail using various Blocking Lists that are available. This is their right. (You may have a right to send, but you do not have a right to force others to receive)

4) SpamCopBL is just one of many such lists. SpamCop does NOT recommend using its list to actually block mail but rather suggests that it be used to flag mail as potential spam. But the fact is many do use it to block mail, but again that is their choice and their right to do so.

5) The SpamCopBL is probably the most aggressive in adding IP's to its list, but at the same time it is the easiest to get IP's taken off the list (no special action or request is need to be taken off the SpamCopBL, it is automatic). As long as no email is recieved by SpamCop spamtraps and no reports by users that they have received what they determine to be spam, are filed in a 48hour period the IP is automaticly removed from the list. PS it takes more than one report to be added to the list, it is a very complex formula.

6) Nobody is forced to use the SpamCopBL. It is provided as a FREE service and is made available to anybody who would like to use it to reduce the spam that they are receiving.

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For your information I reported this morning a spam that flagged one of your <<servers>>:

Submitted: Sunday, September 12, 2004 7:53:32 AM -0400:

=?ISO-8859-1?B?SW1tZWRpYXRlIERlbGl2ZXJ5ISBObyBXYWl0cyEgICAgIHZs?=

1225734358 ( http://www.worldwidemedstoday.com?wid=000016&ti... ) To: abuse[at]ilocalhost.com

1225734355 ( http://www.worldwidemedstoday.com?wid=000016&ti... ) To: abuse[at]gblx.net

1225734354 ( Forwarded spam ) To: spam[at]uce.gov

1225734353 ( 61.49.183.109 ) To: spamcop[at]imaphost.com

1225734351 ( 61.49.183.109 ) To: ct-abuse[at]sprint.net

1225734348 ( 61.49.183.109 ) To: postmaster#cnc-noc.net[at]devnull.spamcop.net

1225734344 ( 61.49.183.109 ) To: postmaster#publicf.bta.net.cn[at]devnull.spamcop.net

1225734341 ( 61.49.183.109 ) To: postmaster#bta.net.cn[at]devnull.spamcop.net

1225734337 ( 61.49.183.109 ) To: postmaster#public.bta.net.cn[at]devnull.spamcop.net

1225734328 ( 61.49.183.109 ) To: abuse[at]cnc-noc.net

...looks like they are hosting an illegal medication website which appears in several spams and gets reported often! If you get spam, viagra should ring a bell! You may notice such spams are also reported to government agencies in charge of criminal/ fraud investigations, not just to SpamCop!

PS. As I was posting this, Global Crossing sent me an automated reply:

Thank you for taking the time to contact Global Crossing's Abuse

Team concerning potential Internet abuse by one of our customers.

Your message will be read and acted on by a human, however due to the

large volume of email we handle every day, we may not be able to

respond to you individually.

In an effort to better serve you, the Global Crossing

Internet Security Team has divided our responsibilities into

several distinct groups.

/snip

..despite what they say I doubt they ever look into the spam reports!

Edited by dra007

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I for one have other ideas for dealing with spam that would be far more effective

As said in my last ... put them into play.

On another site I actually had a former server administrator explain to me that you guys are a reporting agency...you yourselves do not take blocking actions but you do provide the information they use to make their decisions

Now just how "kewl" is this .. The FAQs here have been suggested over and over, but you keep referencing "conversations" with other "identities" about your "site" being listed on a spammer list. It's at this point that one once again wants to point out that you have your head somewhere dark, sorry. 20+ posts into this thing and you still can't separate e-mail, web-site, IP address, servers, ISP, hosting services, administrative titles and positions, .. actually bored now with looking through your postings and looking for all the things that you keep re-spouting with wrong data and concepts. Try the damned FAQ here, especially the "Why am I Blocked?" piece ... then make your reappearance with a complete data set that makes sense.

I don't know what the other sites on my server are doing...but trust me,if given even half a chance I would have been all over my server to avoid this happening and instead I'm all over you guys for doing this to me!!!

And once again, there is no one "here" that cares what those other sites do, how many sites there may be .... it's the e-mail server that's sending the spew that is at issue. The actual spam spew may not be connected to "any" of the web-sites being hosted. Hey, here's an idea ... read the FAQ here.

but as an honest site owner shouldn't I be given access to this information

Exactly at which point have you totally missed the repeated data point that a web-site is not the same as a "shared e-mail server administrated by a hosting outfit" ...????? Oh that's right, you still have yet to even take a peek at the FAQ, and your "expert" hosting service doesn't have a clue. Sorry for bringing that up again.

No legitimate site wants to be falsely labelled a spammer

One could respond to this, but see above .. just another iteration of the same wrong data.

If you think I'm giving you nothing but headaches

All I see is that you are wasting everyone's time. You haven't got the facts correct yet, but you continue to spew forth your alleged anger. At one point you didn't want to "make data public" .. oblivious tto the fact that StevenUnderwood had already spent time to develop and post such data .... then later post again confirming that the data you sent in "private" matched what had been posted already .. then you complain that Steven never responded ... and even after all of that, you still bitch, carp, and complain about items and subjects not in play, not involved, and are still ignoring (or just acting ignorant) of the factual items. Can we say "wasting everyone's time" again?

if you want me to stop replying then lock this thread

and just what is that action supposed to prevent? (3 seconds or so and another Topic started?) .... Hmmm, one would wonder at your experience at having Topics Closed/Locked ... If you actually look around in here, that doesn't happen. Worst case, as is coming up in this case, the Topic gets moved to the Lounge. This is a "Help" Forum for folks that want help. Thus far, you've been offered a bunch, but haven't done a thing with it. These continued long rants aren't part of a "Help" function. I'm actually debating with myself over moving this to the Lounge as you are making such a great example of "How not to get any help here - Simply ignore anything that looks like it could be an answer" .. thus leaving me with the alternative of simply changing the Topic Title and Description.

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