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Armorbeast

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I'm actually debating with myself over moving this to the Lounge as you are making such a great example of "How not to get any help here - Simply ignore anything that looks like it could be an answer" .. thus leaving me with the alternative of simply changing the Topic Title and Description.

That sounds like the best suggestion I have yet seen in this thread! Perhaps in the process it ought to be re-named to "how to best beat on a dead horse!".

Edited by dra007

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No legitimate site wants to be falsely labelled a spammer and many share your views about spam...but what if one of your site watchers reports sites they don't like or abuses the system you have set up,I read and if I missed anything in your faq and so on that says you protect sites and fellow members from this,please point it out!!From the comments I got here it doesn't matter how the report comes in...you'll add the site to your list.

Your basic misconception is that spamcop would tolerate malicious or abusive reporting. I realize the FAQ are in some ways tortutous to understand (though Wazoo has gone to a great deal of trouble to untangle them and though I haven't had time to test it out, others have said that he has done a great job).

Nevertheless, I don't remember that it took me very long as a newbie to understand that there is a complicated algorithym determinging whether an address goes on the bl or not. Not only that, but there are easy procedures for the person reported to contest the listing and last, but not least, spamcop reporters can be fined and banned for inaccurate reporting.

It is frustrating, particularly if you are anti-spam, to find yourself on a blocklist. However, the spammers are getting trickier and trickier and perhaps you just aren't quite up to speed on the ways that they can send spam through unsuspecting servers.

I haven't read the whole thread, but if Global Crossing is your provider, it is because they put corporate policies before customers. They are the ones who should be getting the flak. They are the ones who won't do the simple things necessary to protect their customers from having their email blocked.

Miss Betsy

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Usually if a block is because of a parser or reporting error, a post of the I.P. or a bounce message gets the problem cleared up real quick.

It seems like the more a topic starter makes repeat complaints about unjustified blocking, the more likely that there is either a security problem on the I.P. or that the ISP is actually knowingly hosting a spammer. Usually there is a security problem.

And when it is end users complaining about their ISP's server getting listed like is going on here, it is usually because the ISP is not telling them the truth about what is really going on and just giving them the runaround and trying to blame spamcop.net.

Sometimes it is because the ISP plans to make their real money off of spammers, and offer low rates to others for use as human shields.

If an ISP is hosting spammers web sites or providing any services to spammers, they will quickly end up on many blocking lists that are harder to get out of than bl.spamcop.net.

While the error rate of bl.spamcop.net listing a real mail server is not zero, but it is low enough that it is extremely likely that there is some problem with the sending server.

And unlike most end user's internet connections which are fixed rate per month, a large receiving mail server must pay a rate based on how much e-mail they receive.

Accepting all mail from an I.P. address with a spam problem is not cost effective for many mail operators as it will likey tripple their operational costs. And those costs can be on the order of a $1000 U.S. per month.

I see know reason why the costs of operating the mail servers I get mail on should be trippled because some other mail server does not know how to keep spammers from using it.

-John

Personal Opinion Only

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Thanks...as Miss Betsy recognised right off the bat I am a newbie at this and as a newbie there are a few points~first is that to me my site and my server are one if what happens to one happens to all~IE,they get put on a list and I get put on a list~thus when I speak of my site being blocked most tech sites I've mentioned this on instantly realise I mean the server~maybe Wazoo needs to take a chill pill and not take personal what was said in frustration and not directed at him personally until he made it personal.

Second point,I wanted to know how my site got on the list,show me something...dra007 understood and he did just that and for that I thank you.I asked repeatedly to see something and you understood...again,maybe its just common speech.

You guys keep referring to the faq and totally missed the reason I was ignoring you...because the bounced pm's said that the sole reason they were rejected was because of your blacklist and I did send a copy of one of the pm's to Steven as I was requested to do in the forum~I explained that I don't want to accidentally leave any info that might lead back to the member by posting in the forum~guess you don't understand hesitation when a members private information is an issue.Steven said he got all the info on his own that was included in what I sent him,he just did a domain search and got the server info~not the info I provided to him in the pm which was what I was questioning.

The I dunnos and I guesses made me even angrier and for that I apologise...I thought the process you used would require you to verify that the complaints were valid and that you should,out of courtesy if nothing else,inform the sites on the server that they were blacklisted...but you didn't do the blacklisting yourself,you only provide the blacklist to those who do.You also cannot tell the people on the server they will be blacklisted because on a shared server basically prevents this...you can only contact the server host.Still doean't mean the process itself is right and I seem to have noticed in your own comments a bit of reservation in your voice about saying it was...just it was the only way you see to do it.

Below is a copy of one of the rejected pm's with the members email X'ed out...I asked for permission first which is something any responsible site admin would do with anything concerning a members info.

Hi. This is the qmail-send program at st03.startlogic.com.

I'm afraid I wasn't able to deliver your message to the following addresses.

This is a permanent error; I've given up. Sorry it didn't work out.

<XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX>:

216.122.69.129 failed after I sent the message.

Remote host said: 554 5.7.1 Your server st03.startlogic.com [66.235.197.114] is listed by the blacklist bl.spamcop.net. Please contact your Dial-Up/DSL/Network ISP Provider. (http://www.spamcop.net/w3m?action=checkblock&ip=66.235.197.114)

--- Below this line is a copy of the message.

Return-Path: <webmaster[at]dreamslayerartworks.com>

Received: (qmail 5267 invoked by uid 80); 11 Sep 2004 20:09:41 -0000

To: Undisclosed-recipients: ;

Subject: Topic Reply Notification - American Education~

Reply-to: webmaster[at]dreamslayerartworks.com

From: webmaster[at]dreamslayerartworks.com

Message-ID: <5dcc419153b37921f7081422e6f8ae11[at]www.dreamslayerartworks.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit

Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 13:09:41 -0700

X-Priority: 3

X-MSMail-Priority: Normal

X-Mailer: PHP

X-MimeOLE: Produced By phpBB2

Now I'm sure you'll say there was no reason not to post this earlier...but if there is any member nfo here that I leave by accident then I have done the member a disservice~she said just delete her email addy.

The reason I point to you as the source here is that the only reason given for the email rejection was the spamcop blacklist...the fact is that when I came in here I was furious,I asked for specific info only to be told you didn't know or couldn't provide so my anger grew.Then when you guys started getting hostile I really blew my top...the #1 responsibility of a good site admin is to keep his cool while everyone else may be losing theirs...if nothing else,you stop replying to let the matter die on its own accord and you damn sure don't go back with guns blazing like what was done here.I even told you to lock the thread...when a topic gets too hot and people are name calling,thats the first thing you do as you can always unlock it later if you want.

You recognised that I came in here being courteous and trying to present my case...but with each response you can tell I was getting angrier and you can also tell this is the first time I've dealt with an issue like this.You make assuptions that I didn't read the faq...wrong,I did but it did not answer specifics.When I am accused of something wrong it does not matter if its guilt by association...I will confront you and you better have answers or you're gonna have one raging individual on your hands.I also hope that you don't blacklist a hospital some day by accident because they choose to advertise online like they do everywhere else...you may only provide the list,but if someone dies because you did not verify the source~the negative backlash itself will be enough to destroy this site~it may be up to the ISP's to decide who to blacklist,but a mistake will make people question how a hospital got on your blacklist.

I apologise for losing my temper,but it seems the members here have no problem providing specific answers to my questions and they fully understand my frustration...I took a day away to cool off and as a member I am entitled to blow off some steam~but as an admin you must at all times act professional and if you find yourself too angry to hold your tongue,then you don't reply at all.My actions were born out of the fury of finding my site listed on a blacklist when by your own admission we probably did nothing wrong...your anger,however,was due to your inability to step away and remain professional in how you addressed this matter~in fact,if you had simply stopped replying so too would I!!You keep saying I need to read the faq...seems someone needs to go find out how an admin should conduct himself and learn that you do not have to keep replying to every post especially when its self defeating and makes you look like an ass!I can lash out here and I can lash out at you...but I would never conduct myself that way with a member of my site,I may not understand blacklisting but I am a damn good admin and people that know me know that I usually can find answers to problems when I say I can~of course you don't know me so you have no reason to take me at my word.

Final words here...take a chill pill,sit back and relax...go get a beer and watch a little tv...calm down and always remember,someone finds themselves blacklisted don't expect them all to come in here happy faced and full of yes sirs and thank yous~some will come in here furious and you better learn to step away when you clearly see that you're not helping the situation or actually making it worse!Told ya when I came back I'd be calmer...but see in my absence Wazoo wasn't:(

Thanks Miss Betsy,dra007 and WB8TYW...you guys gave me what I wanted and you didn't lose your cool:P

Edited by Armorbeast

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Thank you for taking the time to "cool down" and finally providing some specific information. I will try to address some of your comments point by point in no specific order.

but as an admin you must at all times act professional
You still have not understood what this forum is all about. There are NO admins here. It is a user selfhelp forum. It is made up of people just like you. It is people just like you who are taking the time to provide answers to questions from people like you. Note: "people like you" = me, you and nearly everyone else using this forum. There are a few admins who from time to time do make a post, but none of them have posted to you thread. Wazoo is the official moderator of the site and his payment for his services consists solely of the personal satifaction he gets by trying to help others. He is not an employee of SpamCop, he does not get paid one single penny from SpamCop for any of the work he does. If you are able to understand this, it should change your tone. Thankfully you tone has changed without understanding this first basic concept.
You guys keep referring to the faq and totally missed the reason I was ignoring you...because the bounced pm's said that the sole reason they were rejected was because of your blacklist and I did send a copy of one of the pm's to Steven as I was requested to do in the forum
Just to restate, Steven is just another user just like you. The request was NEVER to send the information to him. He has no obligation to reply, but he did reply. I hope that you are finally beginning to understand the structure.

We refer to the FAQ because it does address your question. see Why Am I Blocked? FAQ, Please read before posting and also FAQ Entry: Why am I getting all these bounces?

Do not the titles by themselves seem to relate to your questions? Remember who we are, we don't like wasting our time trying to help someone who

totally missed the reason I was ignoring you
is ignoring the request to read the FAQ. It takes time to answers questions and why should we as simple users waste our time with answers that are already posted but users do not bother to read. If you have a question that is not answered, or need clarification please refer to the FAQ statement that you do not understand and we will try to help.

Again, remember who we are. Does what I am saying make any sense to you? Can you understand why users have responded to you the way they have? To us, we can not understand users who ignore the above listed FAQ items, and it frustrates us.

dra007 and I are writing at the same time so there may be some overlap.

Some basic facts taken from your post

Your web site (email address) is dreamslayerartworks.com - reply was sent to webmaster.

The server you use to send mail is st03.startlogic.com [66.235.197.114]

This may not be the only server that you do use as startlogic has 29 separate servers they use to send mail (see link provided by dra007) Please take a note of the sample of the garbage that "your" server is sending out. It is the reason your messages get blocked.

This server is currently only on the SpamCopBl, but with this kind of junk going out it will not be long before it will be list on many more.

You keep refering to 'Your right to know" The simple fact is that you do not have any right to know the specifics as to why you are being blocked because "you" are not being blocked startlogic is the one being blocked. You feel the effect of being blocked because you use startlogic to send your mail. It is their responsiblity to deal with the problem (which is your problem because it affects you) If they refuse to help, then you have chosen a poor provider to send your mail. Simple example. You want to mail a letter via US mail. You write it, put a stamp on it and give it to the first person you see walking down the street (startlogic) If that person combines you letter with a letter bomb and mails it and the postoffice (the ISP you are sending your message to) refuses to deliver it because it contains a bomb as determined by their testing equipment. Who should your complaints be addressed to, the postoffice or the person you gave the letter to?

As dra007 noted in the reference link, the server you used to send the message that you posted has sent over 50 messages to the spamtraps belonging to the Passive spam Block List

Lookup 66.235.197.114 (st03.startlogic.com) in 20+10 Zones

AS: [NO_ROUTE]

Net 66/8 NET66  Chantilly, Virginia

Results: Positive=2, Negative=28 (2004-09-13 10:14:57 UTC)

PSBL/surriel.com: 553 PSBL spam received [Remove]

SPAMCOP/bl.spamcop.net: Blocked - see http://www.spamcop.net/bl.shtml?66.235.197.114

I have wasted enough of my time. Maybe I have helped, maybe not, but I have tried. And now for the 3rd and last time I will post some basic internet/email facts that to date you have also seemed to have ignored.

1) No mail server is ever blocked from send email (spam or not) by any BL (SpamCop or otherwise) PERIOD. It is not done, It can NOT be done.

2) The receipient of email has the right to refuse to accept any mail they do not want to receive.

3) It is the receipient of email and/or their ISP who is sick and tired of spam that have chosen to block mail using various Blocking Lists that are available. This is their right. (You may have a right to send, but you do not have a right to force others to receive)

Note: if the receipeint is having trouble with the way his/her ISP is blocking mail it is their responsibility to work that out with their ISP or to change ISP's if necessary.

4) SpamCopBL is just one of many such lists. SpamCop does NOT recommend using its list to actually block mail but rather suggests that it be used to flag mail as potential spam. But the fact is many do use it to block mail, but again that is their choice and their right to do so.

5) The SpamCopBL is probably one of the most aggressive in adding IP's to its list, but at the same time it is one of the easiest to get IP's taken off the list (no special action or request is need to be taken off the SpamCopBL, it is automatic). As long as no email is recieved by SpamCop spamtraps and no reports by users that they have received what they determine to be spam, are filed in a 48hour period the IP is automaticly removed from the list. PS it takes more than one report to be added to the list, it is a very complex formula.

6) Nobody is forced to use the SpamCopBL. It is provided as a FREE service and is made available to anybody who would like to use it to reduce the spam that they are receiving.

Edited by dbiel

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66.235.197.114 listed in bl.spamcop.net (127.0.0.2)

Causes of listing

System has sent mail to SpamCop spam traps in the past week (spam traps are secret, no reports or evidence are provided by SpamCop)

SpamCop users have reported system as a source of spam less than 10 times in the past week

Additional potential problems

(these factors do not directly result in spamcop listing)

Listing History

In the past 94.3 days, it has been listed 2 times for a total of 7.2 days

Other hosts in this "neighborhood" with spam reports

66.235.198.85

More information on this <<server>> can be found HERE!

This is what we suspected all along. Spamtraps are secret and no reports are generated. If they are hit that may be an indication of a more serious problem such as compromized machine. Have we had that information at the beginning, many of us would have given suggestions on how to correct this problem rather than go in long tirades on the philosophy of blocklists.

It is also evident that the spew from the above IP is a serious scam rather than garden veriety type as per example bellow:

Return-Path: <root[at]st03.startlogic.com>

Received: from st03.startlogic.com (st03.startlogic.com

[66.235.197.114])

   by ******** (Postfix) with SMTP id 28E6D1A4509

   for <***[at]********>; Sun,  5 Sep 2004 04:16:13 -0500 (CDT)

Received: (qmail 28011 invoked by uid 80); 5 Sep 2004 09:15:44 -0000

Date: 5 Sep 2004 09:15:44 -0000

Message-ID: <20040905091544.28010.qmail[at]st03.startlogic.com>

To:

Subject: I Need Your Assistance Urgently !!!

From: benamre201 <benamre100[at]yahoo.com>

X-Priority: 3 (Normal)

Cc:

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

X-Mailer: RLSP Mailer

X-UIDL: %E["!MhA"!<=!!M+[!!

Quest To Invest In Real Estate Properties/Imports"

I am Mr Ben Amre, I am a former special

Adviser on Petroleum matters to the late Head of State

Of Nigeria Gen. Sani Abacha. Because of my strategic

Position in the former Government and also being a

Close confidant of the late Head of State. /snip

You may want to do some research and find out whether with such history you have ended up on other block lists which may be more difficult to correct. SpamCop delists authomatically as long as the spew stops.

A good point to start would be HERE! Looks like spamtraps were hit on another BLOCK LIST!!

Edited by dra007

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It is not right to blacklist every site on a server so that legit sites will put pressure on their servers to do something more about spamming..

If you don't understand the terms being used, then it will be confusing. IMHO, this quote from your post has been answered, but I will answer it again in another way.

Suppose that you chose an offline carrier to deliver a package (your newsletter) to your client or friend. When the carrier delivered your package, the carrier also insisted on delivering several greasy, dirty, bug infested packages (spam). Suppose the person who answered the door was the butler who was hired by your client to make sure that whoever (or whatever) came into the house is wanted. The butler says, "No, we don't want that garbage." But the only way he can refuse it, is to refuse to accept it all. Now your client wants to know where is my newsletter. If it is a good butler, he will tell your client "I wouldn't accept it because the carrier insisted that we also accept some dirty packages." So your client calls you and says, "Did you know that the carrier you are using is insisting on sending several dirty packages every time you send your newsletter?"

On your end, you are also relying on other people to choose the carrier or if you are running your own server, in this example that's your delivery truck. Of course, you are horrified to think that your carrier is trying to make your clients accept unwanted items!

If you are hiring people to be your carrier, you immediately call them. Or if it is your own delivery truck (your own server), you hire a cleaning person to come in and make sure your truck is clean. The cleaning person says that someone is adding packages to your truck during the night and the driver doesn't know anybetter so he tries to deliver them.

If the people you have hired to be your carrier, are competent, they might have already known that someone had snuck some dirty packages on their truck and done something about it. Once in a while you are the first customer to complain, but then they immediately track down the truck and clean it up. If they aren't competent, they make evasive answers and nothing happens.

Another offline example of why you could be blocked even though you are completely innocent of wrongdoing is the 'traffic jam' because up ahead on the interstate, some driver was careless, was a really bad driver, or was deliberately taking risks and for one of those reasons, had an accident. The traffic jam is temporary and is one of those things that happens and one has to learn to live with.

I have still not read the whole thread and I don't have time to do so, but both Wazoo and Stephen Underwood are extremely helpful. Unfortunately neither one of them will 'guess' and Wazoo sometimes is a bit crusty. When you calm down, perhaps you will realize that you are not talking to the owners of spamcop, but simply users. And that's another aspect that would take a long explanation. the short version is that you are asking the guys under the shade tree why your car won't run. You will be getting lots of answers and usually only those guys will answer who really know what they are doing. You could go to the dealer, but it is a long wait and they don't have time to 'instruct' you - they simply fix the problem and move on or (in this particular case, since your ISP seems to be unresponsive), tell you it is fixed or can't be fixed. In this particular case, it seems that the gas station where you buy gas is giving you bad gas which is causing stinky clouds of smoke so that those who can are refusing to let you drive into their areas. The reason the dealer won't fix your car is because he is not responsible for the gas and isn't bothering to tell you how to fix the problem. (or maybe not, since I haven't read the whole thread)

Whatever the problem is, you, on the *sending* end, are the only person who can fix it. All spamcop has done is to alert you to the problem.

Miss Betsy

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