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Jeff S

Yahoo! Mailservers Blocklisted

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Third, Yahoo getting onto various blocklists is a long-standing problem that only they can solve: their servers are mis-configured so as notto identify the injection point of the spam that they relay - so their own servers keep getting listed.

Actually they seem to have fixed this. The last time I checked Yahoo was showing the IP address of the use in the header now.

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so my Yahoo address is listed on SORBS (http://www.de.sorbs.net) - it looks like I have to pay $50 to get it delisted.

Is this common practice and worth paying? Are they going to tell me why I was listed in the first place?

Thanks again to all for being so helpful - it's really appreciated.

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It is not your address that is listed, it is one of Yahoo's servers that is listed. Your email will go out through a different server every time, so chances are if you try to send the message again it will go through. Paying to delist Yahoo's servers would not be a smart thing to do as they will simply keep getting relisted.

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OK sound advice thanks.

I'll leave you guys alone now, I've taken enough of your time.

My home account (POP) receives around 150 spam messages a day so on the back of the helpful and friendly advice given by this community I'm going to sign up for Spamcop mail filtering which I hope will work to reduce the home spam.

It's great to keep the faith in good people on the net - thanks again everyone.

kris

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It is not your address that is listed, it is one of Yahoo's servers that is listed. Your email will go out through a different server every time, so chances are if you try to send the message again it will go through. Paying to delist Yahoo's servers would not be a smart thing to do as they will simply keep getting relisted.

I've sent 2 emails (from my Yahoo address) to the organisation today and they've both been returned:

This message has been blocked because it is from a RBL/ORDBL IP address.(connection black ip 217.12.10.205).

It seems that my actual address has been blacklisted and not the IP otherwise the message will have gotten through?

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DNS based blocklists block by IP address, not by email addresses. Email address can be (and in the case of spam almost always are) forged, so blocking by email address would be pointless. It may be that one of the blocklist providers you mentioned has decided to list the whole block of Yahoos sending servers until they make some effort to deal with their spamming issues. You can try another means of contact to whoever you are trying to email and see if they can whitelist your address. If you don't have a phone number, you could try the postmaster address at their domain, as those will usually bypass spam filters (at least they are supposed to if they are RFC compliant).

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DNS based blocklists block by IP address, not by email addresses. Email address can be (and in the case of spam almost always are) forged, so blocking by email address would be pointless. It may be that one of the blocklist providers you mentioned has decided to list the whole block of Yahoos sending servers until they make some effort to deal with their spamming issues. You can try another means of contact to whoever you are trying to email and see if they can whitelist your address. If you don't have a phone number, you could try the postmaster address at their domain, as those will usually bypass spam filters (at least they are supposed to if they are RFC compliant).

I've contacted the company and they have unblocked me...simple as that.

thanks again for the quality advice.

best wishes

kris

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I've contacted the company and they have unblocked me...simple as that.

thanks again for the quality advice.

Excellent!! Thanks very much for getting back.

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I've read through this thread, and it looks like the "good" folks at spamcop have developed a hatred of Yahoo--it's become personal. Unfortunately, that doesn't do users who are getting delisted from Yahoo accounts because of refusals to deliver mail from their servers due to spamcop listings any good.

What's so funny about this is it sounds like, from the thread, that spamcop has other options than simply delisting Yahoo permanently--apparently Yahoo uses "nonstandard" headers, and bounces to forged addresses. Perhaps spamcop should, on that basis, change their software to look for those nonstandard headers (although it looks like that has now changed, and Yahoo is using standard headers), and not worry about bounces to forged addresses from Yahoo servers.

Instead of worrying about where to place the blame, and screaming and yelling at people about Yahoo's problems (which the posters here cannot control), FIX THE PROBLEM. I don't care if it's Yahoo's problem. If you have the ability to fix it, then fix it. It's like going to a mechanic to have your brakes fixed, and he says, in a tone of indignation: "I'm NOT going to, it's the manufacture's fault that they're broken!"

I've sent a request to my hosting provider that they stop using spamcop as a service, not so much because of the problems I'm having, but because of the ATTITUDE I see on this forum.

Fix problems, not blame. Maybe when spamcop starts losing business because they won't adjust to the world around them, instead just yelling in self righteous indignation, they will get the message, and figure out how to fix this on their end.

Russ

Edited by riw

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Yet again, another ranter who hasn't taken any effort to understand this thread.....Once again, SpamCop doesn't have the power to block anything, what can be simpler? If an IP get's listed, it is so for legitimate reasons, which should be fixed if future listing is to be prevented.

Edited by dra007

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Yet again, another ranter who hasn't taken any effort to understand this thread.....
...and also doesn't seem to have any consideration for the problems that Yahoo is causing other Internet users here. Misdirected bounces are now estimated to account for 10% of all email and Yahoo's administrators are being grossly negligent for leaving this issue unaddressed for so long.

While the blame does lie with spammers for using this tactic (typically using the email addresses of known anti-spam activists), email server admins have a responsibility to discharge also - not least since it saves them from wasting outbound bandwidth. The "fix" lies with Yahoo, not SpamCop.

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I've read through this thread, and it looks like the "good" folks at spamcop have developed a hatred of Yahoo--it's become personal. Unfortunately, that doesn't do users who are getting delisted from Yahoo accounts because of refusals to deliver mail from their servers due to spamcop listings any good.

I don't think the majority of the posters show any 'hatred' of Yahoo. Stating that they are irresponsible is not the same thing as hatred.

What's so funny about this is it sounds like, from the thread, that spamcop has other options than simply delisting Yahoo permanently--apparently Yahoo uses "nonstandard" headers, and bounces to forged addresses. Perhaps spamcop should, on that basis, change their software to look for those nonstandard headers (although it looks like that has now changed, and Yahoo is using standard headers), and not worry about bounces to forged addresses from Yahoo servers.

Why should spamcop change? Because of those two items, thousands, maybe even millions, of people are receiving spam that they wouldn't if Yahoo acted responsibly. However, those who use spamcop blocklist do not because of spamcop policies.

Instead of worrying about where to place the blame, and screaming and yelling at people about Yahoo's problems (which the posters here cannot control), FIX THE PROBLEM. I don't care if it's Yahoo's problem. If you have the ability to fix it, then fix it. It's like going to a mechanic to have your brakes fixed, and he says, in a tone of indignation: "I'm NOT going to, it's the manufacture's fault that they're broken!"

That is not a good analogy. It is like telling the policeman who stops you for speeding that the manufacturer of your car (or mechanic) set your speedometer incorrectly. The policeman doesn't care whose fault it is. You are the one operating the car at unsafe speeds.

I've sent a request to my hosting provider that they stop using spamcop as a service, not so much because of the problems I'm having, but because of the ATTITUDE I see on this forum.

You have just become part of the spam problem.

Fix problems, not blame. Maybe when spamcop starts losing business because they won't adjust to the world around them, instead just yelling in self righteous indignation, they will get the message, and figure out how to fix this on their end.

No one is blaming anyone. If you have a problem with the use of blocklists that block spam, then you have choices. So do the people who choose to use blocklists - you are blaming them for your choices.

Miss Betsy

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A false positive is as bad as or even worse than spam.

On our mail server we use SPF, DomainKeys and DNSBL. We use several DNSBL lists:

dsn.rfc-ignorant.org

dul.dnsbl.sorbs.net

list.dsbl.org

sbl-xbl.spamhaus.org

#bl.spamcop.net

One list unfortunatley had to be removed due to a large number of false positives, and as this thread states, many, way too many were from Yahoo/Yahoogroups blacklisted by SCBL. When one block out such a large service provider as Yahoo the list was rendered useless.

Have SC concidered an alternative list wich isn't that strict? We're doing fine without SC, but I really think they should reconcider their approach towards Yahoo.

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Have SC concidered an alternative list wich isn't that strict? We're doing fine without SC, but I really think they should reconcider their approach towards Yahoo.
As an email server admin, you have the option of whitelisting Yahoo's servers which would mean accepting their email even if listed by SpamCop (presumably you are also aware of the recommendation of using SpamCop in conjunction with other filtering methods rather than rejecting email on the basis of a SpamCop listing alone). However you may wish to review the amount of spam (in the form of misdirected bounces) emanating from Yahoo before allowing them to waste your bandwidth...

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A false positive is as bad as or even worse than spam.

<snip>

When the email is rejected at the server, then the sender of a 'false positive' gets an email telling hir that the email was not received. IMHO, this method is much preferable to accepting dubious email since the recipient then has to filter it and delete or simply delete. I have found (and others also) that it is not that easy to always identify 'false positives' in amongst the spam. An automatic system is much more reliable and, if there is a rejection notice, then the sender knows that it wasn't received (whereas if it is deleted by mistake, no one knows that it wasn't received).

It also serves as an 'education' tool for those who are ignorant of how email works and allows them to make better decisions about their email service. If enough Yahoo customers realized how much trouble their email service was causing other email users, perhaps they would raise enough complaints with Yahoo that Yahoo would change their policies.

As has been pointed out, most server admins who use spamcop use it in conjunction with other blocklists so that the problem of false positives is reduced to almost nothing. Since I am not a server admin, I am not quite sure how they do it.

I realize that 'instructing' customers on how blocklists work is a little like 'kicking dead whales along the beach' as another server admin recently said, but, IMHO, it is worth it since the more customers understand, the more they will support the use of blocklists and expect their correspondents to use reliable email service. And therefore, fewer people will be able to respond to spam which makes it less profitable for spamming.

Miss Betsy

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As I stated initially we use several DNSBL lists, in which DNSBL is just one of several factors to determin spam. SPF and DomainKeys (a yahoo developed anti-spam system which uses digital signing of messages. A mail server key and a DNS MX key) and Bayesan filtering are also used. In our case, being listed/blocked on a DNSBL list only adds points to the SpamAssasin score. If the score gets higher than a preset limit, the email is concidered spam. The users have the option to reject or have messages be placed under a spam folder by default. (If concidered spam)

Anyway, I find it symptomatic that of all lists we use, approx. 5 of major lists (spamhaus.org, sorbs.org, etc) only bl.spamcop.net has blacklisted yahoo.com. Are all the other providers wrong then? What is that spamcop.net knows that the others doesn't? Also, as mentioned earlier we don't use bl.spamcop.net anymore, I am just curious why they have taken this rather extrem measure.

Edited by rear_gunner

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Anyway, I find it symptomatic that of all lists we use, approx. 5 of major lists (spamhaus.org, sorbs.org, etc) only bl.spamcop.net has blacklisted yahoo.com. Are all the other providers wrong then? What is that spamcop.net knows that the others doesn't? Also, as mentioned earlier we don't use bl.spamcop.net anymore, I am just curious why they have taken this rather extrem measure.

Every list has a different set if criteria for being listed. Spamcop's is that reports have been received recently (i.e. a spam run is currently running). Spamcop also delists automatically if the spam stops, so can be more aggressive in its listing. Retrying a day later will likely find your server off the list IF your ISP is paying attention and dealing with the problem.

THAT is the issue with Yahoo, they are not dealing with their issue.

I certainly hope you have read each of the lists descriptions about what they list? I have listed the description of each you are using:

dsn.rfc-ignorant.org - http://www.rfc-ignorant.org/policy-dsn.php

dul.dnsbl.sorbs.net - http://www.us.sorbs.net/faq/dul.shtml

list.dsbl.org - http://dsbl.org/faq

sbl-xbl.spamhaus.org - http://www.spamhaus.org/sbl/sbl-rationale.html

sbl-xbl.spamhaus.org - http://www.spamhaus.org/xbl/index.lasso

#bl.spamcop.net - http://www.spamcop.net/fom-serve/cache/297.html

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Hi,

Well, yes and "no". I have of course read the descriptions prior to implementing them. I say also "no" because I am not sure what you mean(?) Are you suggesting there's something wrong with any particular list?

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Well, yes and "no". I have of course read the descriptions prior to implementing them. I say also "no" because I am not sure what you mean(?) Are you suggesting there's something wrong with any particular list?

Nothing wrong with any list, as long as the lists are understood. For example, you are complaining about the SpamCopDNSBL "blocking" e-mail, yet even SpamCop.net does not recommend using the SpamCopDNSBL in a blocking fashion, rather than as a scoring, tagging, etc. tool .... so it's more than "just the list" .. implementation is also a factor ....

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Nothing wrong with any list, as long as the lists are understood. For example, you are complaining about the SpamCopDNSBL "blocking" e-mail, yet even SpamCop.net does not recommend using the SpamCopDNSBL in a blocking fashion, rather than as a scoring, tagging, etc. tool .... so it's more than "just the list" .. implementation is also a factor ....

In our case, being listed/blocked on a DNSBL list only adds points to the SpamAssasin score. If the score gets higher than a preset limit, the email is concidered spam. The users have the option to reject or have messages be placed under a spam folder by default. (If concidered spam).

Ah, well, as I write earlier we don't block emails based on DNSBL alone. It is just one criteria adding score points in SpamAssasin. Then again it's a significant portion leading to a block and/or spam-tag. But that's of course for each postmaster/admin to decide/tweak.

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Hi,

Well, yes and "no". I have of course read the descriptions prior to implementing them. I say also "no" because I am not sure what you mean(?) Are you suggesting there's something wrong with any particular list?

No. I was replying, in particualr, to your comment:

Are all the other providers wrong then?
and explaining that if every list had identical data, there would not be much need for multiple lists, would there.

I assumed you had read all the descriptions and chosen the lists for particular reasons. You would normally choose SpamCop to be very agressive on current spam runs. Unfortunately, Yahoo is listed often because they allow spammers to send from their network.

As a test, I went back to the first page of this thread and grabbed a random IP address (66.94.237.42). It is not listed in SCBL, but is listed in SORBS.

It also has 3 spamcop reports from July, including one bounced reply:

Submitted: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 4:26:20 PM -0400:

Invitation to join the ChristiansHarvestingEnd-timeSouls group

1843538955 ( 66.94.237.42 ) To: spamcop[at]imaphost.com

1843538951 ( 66.94.237.42 ) To: network-abuse[at]cc.yahoo-inc.com

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Submitted: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 8:34:12 AM -0400:

failure notice

1843036858 ( 66.94.237.42 ) ( UUBE ) To: uube[at]devnull.spamcop.net

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Submitted: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 11:28:05 AM -0400:

Please confirm your request to join gospel_of_john

1841895659 ( 66.94.237.42 ) To: network-abuse[at]cc.yahoo-inc.com

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I am new here, and hope that this post is in line with this forum's netiquette. I did not find any other posts that dealt with this issue completely. I have not signed up for SpamCop, but for some reason it has decided to reject some emails sent to me by groups I am subscribed to at Yahoo Groups. As a result, it suspends all my suscriptions and the account needs to be re-activated, this happens weekly. It is annoying, any way to get SpamCop to stop?

By the way the message Yahoo gets is:

Remote host said: 550 5.7.1 Blacklisted: http://www.spamcop.net: silverbd[at]012.net.il

[RCPT_TO]

Thanks,

Brigitte

silverbd[at]012.net.il

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I am new here, and hope that this post is in line with this forum's netiquette. I did not find any other posts that dealt with this issue completely.

No idea how you could have missed this monster, other than it had slipped to the secod page of Topics ....

I have not signed up for SpamCop, but for some reason it has decided to reject some emails sent to me by groups I am subscribed to at Yahoo Groups. As a result, it suspends all my suscriptions and the account needs to be re-activated, this happens weekly. It is annoying, any way to get SpamCop to stop?

The way I read what you are saying .. your (e-mail account) ISP is using the SpamCopDNSBL in a blocking fashion, which even SpamCop.net does not recommend (though many folks do just this) You need to talk to your ISP to see if they offer any whitelisting capabilities to their users as the first possible option.

By the way the message Yahoo gets is:

Remote host said: 550 5.7.1 Blacklisted: http://www.spamcop.net: silverbd[at]012.net.il

That's really a poor error message ..... another thing to talk to your ISP about .... this rejection message should include the IP address involved, at a minimum ... normally, folks will (also following SpamCop.net's recommendations) also add the information page link such that the 'reason' for the SpamCopDNSBL listing can be seen ....

PM sent to advise of this Move/Merge of this 'new' Topic.

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Boy is my face red!

I got your message about moving my thread and saw this 13 page long discussion! Um, I thought I did a search, guess I need new glasses. Thanks for not being too annoyed about it.

So the bottom line, from what I have read above:

1)SpamCop doesn't block Yahoo, but the spammers acts put Yahoo groups on a whitelist.

2) The ISP has to whitelist Yahoogroups (unfortunately for me, they claim that they don't use SpamCop, they claim that Spamcop acts independently- I think I will have to have a talk with them)

3) It is really Yahoo's responsibility to limit spammers ability to use them to send spam. But we have to be realistic, they provide the service for free, and it is close to impossible to get a real person at yahoo, unless we start a whole grassroots campaign, we won't budge them.

Thanks for your time,

Brigitte

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