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Jeff S

Yahoo! Mailservers Blocklisted

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From the newsgroups, Deputy Richard weighing in the discussion over there;

"Robb Topolski"  wrote in message

news:cr6uqv$gnq$1[at]news.spamcop.net...

>

> I still would like someone to take a peek and see if this is really abuse.

I've been looking at the Yahoo IPs all day and yes, all the listings are

legit due to spam, mostly to spamtraps.  Yahoo doesn't do its users any

favours by allowing lists to be imported and subscriptions to be completed

without confirmations.

Usually the traffic numbers are high enough to limit the listings, but I

think general traffic is probably lower because of the holiday period.

Spammers haven't slowed down though, so the spam ratios are higher than

normal.

Richard

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I am not convinced that it is still not possible to sign up outsiders even though it has not happened to me recently.

That *might* be possible, but if it were, it doesn't make much sense that spammers would do that, because Yahoo actually has a working "unsubscribe" function, and everyone on the spammers' lists could unsubscribe. That's obviously NOT the modus operandi of spammers.

Pehaps it should be made more widely known that Yahoo Groups users are not supposed to report spam that came through the group but should instead report it to the moderator of the group, who can do something about it.

Yes, people should be either complaining directly to the moderators (I've communicated with most of the moderators of the Groups to which I subscribe), or if that produces no response, directly to Yahoo (not sure about their responsiveness). My point is that SpamCop users aren't doing that, and are instead getting the Yahoo Groups servers frequently added to the SCBL by their laziness.

I do not believe in whitelists are the answer.

I get your point about not granting exceptions, but wait....whitelists actually are a very good answer, when offered as a mail management tool to the end-users. The main problem of the people who posted problems to this topic is that their ISP's/hosts aren't allowing them to whitelist the Yahoo Groups messages. As a SpamCop Email customer, I'm able to do so, becuase there happens to be an identifiable attribute on those messages that I can tell the system to watch for. Unfortunately, I can't configure the SpamCop system to allow me to have all messages that originate on AOL's webmail system, so SpamCop's whitelisting tool is not as powerful as it should be.

People can take their groups elsewhere, as well.  Perhaps that is what we should be suggesting.

Where? MSN? (I hope that's not your suggestion) Topica? They've morphed into most a marketing outfit. There aren't very many general-purpose list hosts that can handle large groups and that don't charge a fee. Technology lists are welcome at "freelists.org" but that only one field of interest. I've only recently stumbled upon "smartgroups.com" and "coollist.com" but they don't seem to have become very widely known. If you're aware of other free list hosts, let me know.

DT

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Well, I think I might have figured out how to fix it at my ISP

They have a place to list all new groups (I assume this is what you mean by a "white list") and I just spent an hour doing that. I am now receiving my lists again, Hooray! I guess every time I join a new group, I will have to go in and add it to the list....WHAT a PAIN!!!

Thanks for your help yesterday. I had NO clue my ISP had such a thing!

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Glad you found a solution at your ISP. Sorry I can't work your suggestion into play, the structure of this thing doesn't allow for that kind of 'note' ... In all fairness, I could have buried that Yahoo entry way down unfer the Blocking List section, but as you would have seen when looking at the FAQ here, I put it in the first section of items so it would be seen before your eyes glazed over <g>

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I guess every time I join a new group, I will have to go in and add it to the list....WHAT a PAIN!!!

It is no more of a pain than remembering to lock doors or having to have ID's to cash checks, etc. There are some things we have to do all the time because there are some people who are not honest or considerate of others.

Like Stephen U., I do not think that whitelisting is the best response to problems of being blocked because the only way to actually control spam is to make it clear to the sending end that they have a responsibility to take preventative measures against spammers. OTOH, I do believe that whitelisting the bulk mailing lists that one wants (as part of the confirmation process) and rejecting all other bulk email would solve the problem of 'false positives' because most false positives that are wanted are not bulk email (legitimate mailing lists now often tell you how to 'whitelist' their offering). Any ISP that allowed a bulk emailer to operate without identifying it as bulk email would be blocked. Then people would not have to filter non-bulk email and could receive all the unsolicited email from long lost cousins, offers to buy lawnmowers, or all the other useful unsolicited contacts that one might get. The problem becomes solely a technical problem of not being technically competent to prevent spammers from sending bulk email without identifying it as bulk. And it eliminates the last argument of the spammer that people want to know about great deals because anyone who wants spam can whitelist all bulk email.

However, I do object to having to 'whitelist' all my correspondents who send me individual emails. Or to having my emails 'challenged' The *senders* need to become responsible so that I can just enjoy corresponding.

Miss Betsy

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it doesn't make much sense that spammers would do that, because Yahoo actually has a working "unsubscribe" function, and everyone on the spammers' lists could unsubscribe

But if I (or anyone) did not sign up for those messages, they should not even try to unsubscribe. Yahoo needs to fix their systems (which looking at Richard's reply in the newsgroups are still broken to allow spamming).

that don't charge a fee.

THAT is the likely main cause of the problem. You get what you pay for.

I am the member of a couple of ezboards and have been extremely satisfied and received absolutely NO spam from them.

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How about posting the headers from one of the Yahoo group messages that did go through.  It might reveal what is happening.

22251[/snapback]

I posted a link to 15 of them.

It was spam that came from that server. And that server was on two DNSbls at the time time I did my check, spamcop.net and spambag.

If you look at the links, it is clear that at least one spammer has been able to spam freely for several months.

By not curbing the spam coming from their servers, Yahoo is making their groups useless.

The evidence is in news.admin.net-abuse.sightings and can be searched by anyone.

I also doubt that someone would post spam to news.admin.net-abuse.sightings with out sending a notification to the abuse desk for the originating ISP.

So again the question to Yahoo is why a spammer was able to make multiple spam runs of the same spam content over a period of months after the initial report?

-John

Personal Opinion Only

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Did you take a close look at some of the messages that got reported?

Again, I suspect that people are reporting the spam as if it originated from Yahoo...and it doesn't. In fact, I'm sure that many of those reports also involve people who have subscribed to groups and are reporting normal group messages as if they were spam.

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The people posting in this thread have identified that server as being for a Yahoo! groups server. If there is a different server, the same check can be made.

One of the people that posted the complete spams in the .sightings newsgroup is a regular poster on the spamcop newsgroups and has publically stated that they are not a member of any Yahoo group.

The spammers have apparently developed a program that can send spam through the Yahoo! web mailer as if it were an open relay.

Yahoo is putting the I.P. address of originator in their non-standard headers, but because they are non-standard, the spamcop.net parser can not trust them.

For a while Yahoo was using standard headers and spamcop.net was then listing the I.P. address that sent the spam through Yahoo, and Yahoo was getting a nofification of the relay. That action by Yahoo was keeping them off of the spamcop.net blocking list.

For unknown reasons, Yahoo changed back to using the non-standard headers, so as far as anyone doing an automatic trace of the message, Yahoo is the source of the spam.

I belong to at least a dozen Yahoo Groups, and moitor them regularly, and although I've seen an occasional worm-related message (which forged the address of a member or moderator with posting priviledges), I've rarely, if ever seen any spam in those groups.

22254[/snapback]

I am also a member of several Yahoo groups, one allowed subscriptions to be added with out a moderator approval. That group started getting spammed twice a week by a spammer that was obviously using an automated program to join and spam.

After the group was locked down to require a human to approve the joining, another spam run still happened.

This caused a review of the members of the group, and it was discovered that the spammer had a number of e-mail accounts that it had joined up for weeks ahead of the spam run.

The postings by the deputies that have looked at the spamtraps agree with the public archives on news.admin.net-abuse.sightings. Yahoo has a spam problem.

-John

Personal Opinion Only

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David, It is very hard to prove that you can not do something. 

I am not convinced that it is still not possible to sign up outsiders even though it has not happened to me recently.  You know...burn me once, shame on you....

Pehaps it should be made more widely known that Yahoo Groups users are not supposed to report spam that came through the group but should instead report it to the moderator of the group, who can do something about it.  Perhaps if Yahoo would respond to the complaints, some of the people reporting incorrectly would be punished and the word would be spread.  WIthout consequences, things will not change.

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There was a press release from Yahoo about what they did that was copied into one the spamcop newsgroups.

All they did was limit a moderator to joining up 50 people per group instead of 100 per group.

If Yahoo were concerned about the listing, it could do something about it, same as any other entity.  It could probably do a better job of staying off the blocklists than smaller places simply because of the resources it could throw at the situation.  I don't feel badly for Yahoo. 

People can take their groups elsewhere, as well.  Perhaps that is what we should be suggesting.

22260[/snapback]

Yahoo did do something about it. They started using standard e-mail headers so that spamcop.net would treat them as a trusted relay, and as such, Yahoo groups servers stopped showing up in the spamcop.net blocking list.

Then for unknown reasons they stopped doing this on some of their servers, so now those servers get listed.

-John

Personal Opinion Only

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That *might* be possible, but if it were, it doesn't make much sense that spammers would do that, because Yahoo actually has a working "unsubscribe" function, and everyone on the spammers' lists could unsubscribe. That's obviously NOT the modus operandi of spammers.

22266[/snapback]

For one of the posters in news.admin.net-abuse.sightings, it is a violation of the terms of service for their e-mail provider for them to unsubscribe from something that they did not subscribe to.

It is also the case for one of my e-mail providers.

-John

Personal Opinion Only

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I think you missed the point that Steve was trying to make.

No, I understood and acknowledged his point, and then I went on to discuss a different aspect of the whitelisting issue.

DT

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it is a violation of the terms of service for their e-mail provider for them to  unsubscribe from something that they did not subscribe to.

It is also the case for one of my e-mail providers.

Never heard of such a thing, and it sounds very unplausible...please identify a reputable email provider with such a policy...I'd like to see an example.

DT

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I agree that Yahoo! Groups deserves what it gets for:

  • Allowing spammers to abuse its service by not requiring confirmed opt-in
  • Not indicating the source of the emails in a standard fashion
  • Not combatting spam quickly enough to avoid listing of its mail servers by the SCBL

Also, it is my opinion that ISPs which offer email service but block some email and don't tell their customers that some email may be blocked (in violation of the following paragraph from What is the SpamCop Blocking List (SCBL)?) are breaching their contracts with their customers and should be the subjects of class-action lawsuits. OTOH, IANAL.

With any spam filtering system, you should consider keeping suspected spam so that it can be retrieved. Doing so will prevent bounces from your system hitting innocent third parties.

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Never heard of such a thing, and it sounds very unplausible...please identify a reputable email provider with such a policy...I'd like to see an example.

22280[/snapback]

Well, a number of sites recommend Fight spam on the Internet!, which states "The personal things you can do about spam include never responding to it" on How can I help make a difference? and quotes Howard Beales, Director of the USA's Federal Trade Commision's Bureau of Consumer Protection as having said "We are also working on (spam) cases that involve claims that you can opt out, when in fact what clicking on the link to unsubscribe will do is simply verify that you have a valid e-mail address, so that you can then get lots of spam instead of a little" on Should I hit "remove"?.

Specifically on point, the University of Cincinnati College of Nursing Information Technology Acdeptable[sic] Use Policy states in Section 4.3 "Unacceptable Use" / Portion "Email and Communications Activities" / Paragraph 8 "If you receive any unsolicited email you should just delete it unless it is of an offensive nature or you feel threatened by it, then you should either contact the CATER helpdesk or the UCit helpdesk to report it. UCit is currently working on a way to stop or at least filter spam that comes in through the UC mail system until then it is best to just delete it. Be cautious of the unsubscribe likes on these emails, most do not unsubscribe but instead confirm your email to the send and you may receive more." Of course, now Hormel's lawyers will be after that College. :)

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(responding to the examples given by Jeff G)

Of course, we all know that you shouldn't utilize the "unsubscribe" option in conventional spam...that's not really the point here. John claimed the following:

For one of the posters in news.admin.net-abuse.sightings, it is a violation of the terms of service for their e-mail provider for them to unsubscribe from something that they did not subscribe to.

I'm sorry, but I don't believe that an ISP would punish a user for unsubscribing from a Yahoo Group, even if they were subscribed by someone else. I'll need to see some proof of that.

And as for the examples of "spam" coming from Yahoo Groups posted in the "sightings" group, there are a bunch from a "Larry Kilgallen" that seem to demonstrate my point. He's reporting legitimate group messages as if they were spam. I see the same thing when I check the "history" of some of the server IP's in the SpamCop reports database. I'm not saying that there isn't any spam being transmitted through the Groups...I'm saying that I think that a lot of the reports are made in error by people who did indeed subscribe at one point to a group, and are either reporting ALL of their Held Mail in batches without examing all of the items, or they're reporting unwanted items that slip by the moderators of the groups to which they are subscribed when they should really be manually reporting the true senders of the messages, or complaining to the owner/moderstors, and not the flagging the IP's of the Yahoo servers.

Just my opinion, based on lots of participation in the Groups and lots of examinations of what SpamCop users are reporting as "spam" that come from the Groups, and also based on active spam fighting for almost 10 years. Those of you who disagree are welcome to your opinions. :-)

DT

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SpamCop blacklisted a Yahoo Group that I belong to, FlyLady.net, and now I cannot receive any daily emails (unless I keep re-applying to FlyLady everyday!!). This seems to happen every few weeks to months and started again this weekend. I have MailWash and have listed the group's email addresses into my friends list and it still bounces back the emails.

This is getting quite frustrating!! Especially since I'm a moderator for a local chapter and my own emails keep coming back to me as a bounce!

FlyLady.net stated to let SpamCop know that they are not spamming my email account but I cannot seem to find (on SpamCop's site) how to contact them to let them know this. I signed up for the daily emails and have no problem with receiving each email that the group sends.

Can anyone help me with this?

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SpamCop blacklisted a Yahoo Group that I belong to, FlyLady.net, and now I cannot receive any daily emails (unless I keep re-applying to FlyLady everyday!!). This seems to happen every few weeks to months and started again this weekend.

Problem #1 - your ISP is apparently using the spamcop blocklist to reject mail from IP addresses that have been reported as sending spam. Have you asked your ISP if there is a whitelisting function so that mail from your group is not listed.

I have MailWash and have listed the group's email addresses into my friends list and it still bounces back the emails.

Mailwasher only filters email that has been accepted by your ISP.

This is getting quite frustrating!! Especially since I'm a moderator for a local chapter and my own emails keep coming back to me as a bounce!

Problem #2 If you are sending emails, and then getting the bounces, then the people that you are sending them to are bouncing them back to you. I don't think it is the same problem.

FlyLady.net stated to let SpamCop know that they are not spamming my email account but I cannot seem to find (on SpamCop's site) how to contact them to let them know this. I signed up for the daily emails and have no problem with receiving each email that the group sends.

Spamcop does not block anyone's email. Your ISP (or if your emails are being bounced back to you, the ISP's of the people you are mailing) is the one who is rejecting email based on the spamcop blocklist.

What FlyLady.net should do is complain loudly to yahoo that yahoo's policies are disrupting legitimate groups.

Miss Betsy

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Wazoo,

Thanks for moving this....I had looked for something about Yahoo groups but didn't find it, that is why I posted it seperately...sorry about that.

Anyhow, I'm more confused as ever....I read thru this whole thread and have no clue where the "Whitelist" is. I actually have all of the email address from the Yahoo groups in my "Friends list" but that still hasn't stopped it from being bounced. I, too, have gone to my Yahoo account to see why I got unsubscribed and it stated that it was because of SpamCop and hard bouncing. Also confused with all the lingo.

How can I let my emails come thru that I actually sign up for? The main reason why my husband got the MailWasher Program was because of all the porno and drug ads I was getting on my email (now he is getting it on his). I did change my email address because of all the junk I was getting and was also having problems with the emails from the Yahoo groups (being bounced back) with the old email address.

The group states to let SpamCop know that they are not spammers and yet I have no idea how to do this. Am I supposed to go back to Yahoo and do something? Go to my service provider?

Momto3

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Thanks Miss Betsy :)

We must have been typing at the same time! :lol:

Anyhow, FlyLady did state that we need to let SpmaCop know yet how do you do that?

Also, the one that bounced back to me was from the local group that I own & moderate. I'm wondering if it's just bouncing anything from Yahoo then now???

I guess I'll be making a phone call to my service provider's customer service.

Thanks for your help!! :)

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Wazoo,

Thanks for moving this....I had looked for something about Yahoo groups but didn't find it, that is why I posted it seperately...sorry about that.

I understand .. that it related to e-mail is one thing, and apparently what you focused on. I was recently granted the power to change things 'here' and I had thought I'd pretty much covered things with the added sections and changed Forum descriptions. <g> This Yahoo situation does have a link in the FAQ (Frequently asked question) which points to a discussion from the last time it got as bad as it has recently. Not that it would have answered all your questions (or brought you back 'here) .. but the situation is definitely covered <g>

Anyhow, I'm more confused as ever....I read thru this whole thread and have no clue where the "Whitelist" is.

The catch there is that there might actually be several involved ... or not available at all. You may have one in your e-mail application )which you suggest in the next paragraph) ... but the one probably in question is the implementation of the spam tools used at your ISP. Your ISP may or may not have a white-listing function available.

I actually have all of the email address from the Yahoo groups in my "Friends list" but that still hasn't stopped it from being bounced.

The function of "your friend's list" is to handle e-mail coming into your local InBox (if we're talking the same thing here ... afraid that you might actually be talking about your "address book" finction which is used in generating your outgoing e-mail ..???

I, too, have gone to my Yahoo account to see why I got unsubscribed and it stated that it was because of SpamCop and hard bouncing. Also confused with all the lingo.

This implies that your ISP is bouncing e-mail coming from (at least on of the ) Yahoo e-mail servers. (Hoping that you don't have the "bounce function" running in your MailWasher application)

How can I let my emails come thru that I actually sign up for? The main reason why my husband got the MailWasher Program was because of all the porno and drug ads I was getting on my email (now he is getting it on his). I did change my email address because of all the junk I was getting and was also having problems with the emails from the Yahoo groups (being bounced back) with the old email address.

Again, the "bounce" thing isn't caused by your specific e-mail address ... it's the ISP involved with handling your incoming e-mail (same caveat as above about the MailWasher bounce function)

The group states to let SpamCop know that they are not spammers and yet I have no idea how to do this. Am I supposed to go back to Yahoo and do something? Go to my service provider?

I'm suspecting that Miss Betsy posted her last while you were typing, so she may have already answered some of this. What "we" would like to see is the bounce message involved, but (I believe it was DavidT) apprently you don't get to see that actual message ... so "we" are kind of shooting in the dark .. having to guess at your ISP actions and involvement, a possible question on your MailWasher configuration, etc., etc., etc. The hopes in (especially such a long) discussion like this has turned out to be is that there's enough data posted by other folks that you can apply some of their experiences towards your situation .... such as querying your ISP as to how they are using the SCBL, and if they have a white-list function for their users ....

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Thanks Miss Betsy :)

We must have been typing at the same time! :lol:

Heh .. as I suspected <g>

Anyhow, FlyLady did state that we need to let SpmaCop know yet how do you do that?

SpamCop doesn't work that way. Flylady seems to think that her e-mail address / froup-name / or something is at issue. It's not. The "blocked" item / e-mail is based on the IP address of the sending e-mail server. As referenced elsewhere within this discussion, there is a large number of Yahoo servers in the mix, but not "all" of them are listed (he says without spending the time to research the hundreds (?) of Yahoo e-mail servers)

Also, the one that bounced back to me was from the local group that I own & moderate. I'm wondering if it's just bouncing anything from Yahoo then now???

As stated previously and above, it's not "any and all e-mail from Yahoo" ..... it's e-mail coming from an e-mail server that has had too much spam reported with that IP address found as the source of the e-mail. Any bounces you see are related to the receiving ISP using the SCBL in their anti-spam spew aresenal in a traffic denial mode.

I guess I'll be making a phone call to my service provider's customer service.

Good luck in getting correct answers!

Thanks for your help!! :)

That's what Miss Betsy is famous for <g>

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I started using SpamCop in conjunction with Mailwasher about a week ago.  Eveything was going along smoothly until today.  It appears any email message that comes via Yahoogroups.com is blacklisted by SpamCop.  I have created filtes to get around this, but anyone have an idea what this is all about.

Thanks

Jeff

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Boy, I posted this question and a few days later I see where it has generated almost six pages of responses. Unfortunately, maybe I did not completely explain myself, or those of you in the know seem to have your head in the sand. So let me try this again.

Mailwasher is reporting every email that comes from yahoogroups.com as being blacklisted by SpamCop. Fifteen minutes ago, I created a new group at Yahoo. Within 30 seconds, the notification that is sent indicating the group is created and active was blacklisted by SpamCop. The email that I sent to the list was also listed as being blacklisted by SpamCop.

So I reiterate, why is Spamcop blacklisting the complete domain of yahoogroups.com? I believe that if you really read some of the other post, they are asking the same exact question. For those of you who are ‘experts’ on this subject, it might be wise to remember that not everyone is as computer literate as the next person. I have been in the computer business since I built my first computer (ISAMA 8008) back in 1974. I have certain expertise in hardware and software. However, when it comes to the proliferation of this spammming and email via the internet, I have to claim ignorance and that is why I posted my question after finding nothing that related to the problem in your FAQ’s.

Remember, it is much easier to catch flies with honey than vinegar.

Jeff S.

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You say "entire Yahoo Domain" is blocked. The entire discussion has pointed out the use of IP addresses involved. There's the FAQ pointer once again, this time perhaps hit the "Glossary" link .. there is a (very simplified) walk through of what an IP address is ...

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No our head is not in the sand. Strike that, reverse that!

Spamcop does not list entire domains, in fact Spamcop does not list domains. The only thing on the Spamcop list is IP addresses.

Just for your info, myself and others "in the know" have no trouble receiving any of the Yahoo Groups along with using the Spamcop blocklist. Hmmmmmmmmm

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He's reporting legitimate group messages as if they were spam.

22287[/snapback]

legitimate is in the eye of the mailbox owner.

yahoo groups do not use generally accepted best practices for list management (aka confirmed opt-in).

One of my email addresses was subscribed to a yahoo group without my permission.

As spam is generally defined by *consent*, not *content*, all messages sent to me from yahoogroups are spam, even if *other* people want them. I reserve the right to report such messages as spam.

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