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Guest SkydiveMike

Personal Whitelist Problem

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Guest SkydiveMike
Wait...that shouldn't be happening to people with SpamCop Email accounts, not if you followed the avice in the FAQ about whitelisting "returns.groups.yahoo.com" instead of any individual list address.

Do you have that entry in your personal whitelist?

DT

22424[/snapback]

DING DING DING -- we have a winner

I have had the correct "returns.groups.yahoo.com" in my whitelist for months. Everything has been working for months. Two or three days ago it broke -- with no changes on my part. I verified that "returns.groups.yahoo.com" is still in my whitelist; I still get yahoogroups email in my held mail. I have posted tracking URL's that show the email in my held mail and for some reason none of the "support" people want to belive the problem -- except maybe, now, you. The non-belief is so bad that my valid request for help has been moved to the "lounge" since I can't possibly be "right" since I only started posting here a few days ago and no one else is reporting the problem. The other support folks / moderators seem to want to believe that the problem I am reporting and the rash of other yahoogroups problems couldn't possibly be related -- it must be "stupid user error on my part" (since I am a new poster here). They also want to completely discount the fact that maybe, just maybe, I haven't posted here because things have been working.

Spamcop is in deep danger of losing (multiple *) customers due to the lack of support (and outright rudeness) in the support forums.

(*) I have personally been responsible for signing up around 6 users to the spamcop service -- all of these people will leave if I tell them about this lack of support and rude treatment.

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Nice; the support people in here ask for things like samples and tracking URL -- I go out of my way to provide them and now my problem is moved as a "general rant" because I am not willing to help.

Both samples were responded to. That was not the reason this was moved.

I am not "generally ranting" -- I am reporting that the spamcop system doesn't work correctly today (in one specific area, the whitelist) after working fine for months. This is not something that belongs in the "lounge" -- it is a real problem, and I am reporting it here. Please move this thread back to the correct forum.

As stated, no other complaints, others saying it works, and your continuation of doing nothing but continuing to complain here, apparently having yet to do any work from your end ... and starting actions that appear to be not much more than an attempt to disrupt other discussions ... you're not making a good case for this remaining a "Help" type situation.

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Guest SkydiveMike
If you read the FAQ's and other posts you would find whitelisting through you Spamcop account does work.

RIF!

22426[/snapback]

If you would read my problem reports you would understand that I have "returns.groups.yahoo.com" in my whitelist -- indeed it has been there for quite a few months. Everything was working until around 2-3 days ago and then it stopped working. The fact that I am a new poster here doesn't mean that I have not read the FAQ's and don't understand how the system works.

Again, this is not a general rant; it is a problem report and a request for assistance. Please move this thread back to the correct forum.

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But other people are reporting problems with yahoogroups -- could it be that these are related or does this concept interfere too much with you preconcieved notations of "everything is user error."

As I pointed out before, try reading exactly what is being complained about. You are the only one talking about a SpamCop Filtered E-mail account with a filtering problem.

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I have had the correct "returns.groups.yahoo.com" in my whitelist for months. Everything has been working for months. Two or three days ago it broke -- with no changes on my part. I verified that "returns.groups.yahoo.com" is still in my whitelist; I still get yahoogroups email in my held mail. I have posted tracking URL's that show the email in my held mail and for some reason none of the "support" people want to belive the problem -- except maybe, now, you.

Please try again. Both samples were responded to.

The non-belief is so bad that my valid request for help has been moved to the "lounge" since I can't possibly be "right" since I only started posting here a few days ago and no one else is reporting the problem.

Please try again. That was not the resason for movement.

The other support folks / moderators seem to want to believe that the problem I am reporting and the rash of other yahoogroups problems couldn't possibly be related -- it must be "stupid user error on my part" (since I am a new poster here). They also want to completely discount the fact that maybe, just maybe, I haven't posted here because things have been working.

I have no idea where you are coming up with all these imaginary scenarios, now moving from "rude" to "name-calling" .... please tone down the rhetoric, exaggeration, and fiction ...

Spamcop is in deep danger of losing (multiple *) customers due to the lack of support (and outright rudeness) in the support forums.

(*) I have personally been responsible for signing up around 6 users to the spamcop service -- all of these people will leave if I tell them about this lack of support and rude treatment.

Please see above, your other Topic, other discussions withing the confines of this Forum ....

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Guest SkydiveMike
Without your help, there is no moving forward that I can see.

22422[/snapback]

I have been helping; posting tracking URL's and additional information as requested.

This is a valid problem report; not a general rant

Please move this thread back where it belongs so that a spamcop employee can see it and respond.

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Guest SkydiveMike
please tone down the rhetoric, exaggeration, and fiction ...

22434[/snapback]

I am only trying to report a problem with the system and I am being met with outright resistance -- including the movement of my problem report to a "lounge" forum with a stated reason of:

Without your help, there is no moving forward that I can see.

This is despite that fact that I have been creating and posting tracking URL's upon request, validating settings (whitelist) that have not changed in months, reporting on this validation, and providing as much information as I can to the "support forum".

What does a paying customer have to do to get "support" in the "support forum"?

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Please try reading some things with comprehension mode engaged. The only "employee" with the powers to "look" at your account / settings is the "owner" of the system that provides services for the newsgroups, this web-based Forum, the SpamCop Filtered E-mail account system and the CES e-mail system. I can quickly see that I have said at least three times ... you can make that contact if you feel the need .... pointing out that at this point, I nor any one else here has a clue as to what your SpamCop E-Mail account identity may be, so yet another waste of time for "me" to notify the "one guy" that has his hands full with the rest of his responsibilities.

You are making untrue statements in your postings to other discussions, mis-stating and mis-characterizing what has been said within this discussion ... I repeat, this is seen as an attempt to disrupt other conversations.

For another start on this .. start from the beginning and answer questions asked of you. Once again, "we" can't see your screen, your settings, your special needs .... questions thus far have been to get you to make the answers visible. Your Tracking URLs have been talked to, but that's as far as that part of the conversation went. You appear to have some misconceptions, and these have been talked to, but ....

I kicked a note out to DavidT, as he volunteered some research .. apparently after he had logged off ... pointed him to this discussion as it allegedly answered the question he asked you ... just have to wait to see what his results are ... but until then, "we" are still stuck with no other complaints existing at this time ...

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I am only trying to report a problem with the system and I am being met with outright resistance -- including the movement of my problem report to a "lounge" forum with a stated reason of:

This is despite that fact that I have been creating and posting tracking URL's upon request, validating settings (whitelist) that have not changed in months, reporting on this validation, and providing as much information as I can to the "support forum".

What does a paying customer have to do to get "support" in the "support forum"?

22436[/snapback]

Well, you seem to be in the Blocklist Help forum here rather than the lounge but surely it really doesn't matter where the help comes from as long as someone is able to help in that location. (I realise you have a separate thread in the Lounge as well).

Often discussions get moved to tally up with other threads on a similar theme.

Andrew

Edited by agsteele

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Guest SkydiveMike

Lets get the basics out of the way -- I have read all of the FAQ's, I understand how the system is (supposed to / documented to) work. Please do not reply to this with "read the FAQ" or other some such. My setup is simple; I have one primary email address that forwards into my X[at]spamcop.net address and I read all of my email on spamcop's servers via HORDE. Also, since we are getting the basics out of the way, the number of people "reporting" or "complaining about" this problem is exactly irrelevant -- so no comments such as "you are the only one; please go away" -- I am a paying customer with a valid problem and I really don't care if other people are or are not reporting the exact identical problem -- I just need my problem fixed.

I looked in my whitelist and "returns.yahoogroups.com" IS PRESENT!.

Throughout most of 2004 I have received email from yahoogroups and this email has gone into my Inbox and been processed by my HORDE filters.

Starting right around the beginning of January (*) the spamcop processors have been placing my email from yahoogroups into my held mail folder. I have repeatedly validated that "returns.yahoogroups.com" IS PRESENT IN MY WHITELIST.

In this beginning of January time-frame I have changed nothing on my spamcop account.

A sample of one of the "held" messages is available at the following URL:

http://www.spamcop.net/sc?id=z709584943zd4...8060cfcb5e0819z

I understand completely that yahoogroups may have changed something that is currently breaking the whitelist function -- I also understand that something may have changed in the spamcop system that requires me to change the way I whitelist things. In either of these cases I just need to know what to change / how to change my whitelist so that the functionality present in 2004 is also present in 2005.

If AOL or Hotmail change something that breaks the spamcop POP retreiver (popgate.cesmail.net) then spamcop responds by changing / updating the POP retreiver. This problem is potentially in a similar category -- i.e. potentially yahoogroups has changed something, spamcop should respond with whitelist changes to allow the functionality to work again.

(*) Coincidently, the beginning January timeframe also shows many other users reporting problems with yahoogroups -- though not necessarily verified and isolated to the spamcop whitelist -- intuition says these are probably related and it certainly is a good point for the developers to start with their root cause analysis search.

Edited by SkydiveMike

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But other people are reporting problems with yahoogroups -- could it be that these are related or does this concept interfere too much with you preconcieved notations of "everything is user error."

I don't know that I can be much help since I don't have a spamcop email account, but the problem apparently is with your particular whitelist. It might be related to the fact that yahoo groups are on the spamcop blocklist, but apparently it is not happening to all those who have spamcop email accounts (or not many spamcop email account holders have a yahoo group also to be fair - or possibly have not noticed that their yahoo group is ending up in held mail which leads to a conjecture that they are reporting their groups and that's why the yahoo server remains on the bl - though I would think that that would be noticeable with so many people examining why yahoo is on the bl).

Usually with inexplicable computer errors, the best thing to do is to start over. Delete the whitelisting and re-enter and see what happens. I don't know whether this particular group has changed the 'whitelisting' info. (that has happened to me before, though it seems unlikely since good admins know that a lot of people use whitelisting nowadays)

HTH

Miss Betsy

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Guest SkydiveMike
Please try reading some things with comprehension mode engaged.  The only "employee" with the powers to "look" at your account / settings is the "owner" of the system that provides services for the newsgroups, this web-based Forum, the SpamCop Filtered E-mail account system and the CES e-mail system.

I am fully engaged; I initially posted a real problem here in an attempt to look for support. I have since escalated my request for support to support[at]spamcop.net. Support forums usually exist to help avoid a flood of email in the support[at] email box and I was being a "good internet citizen" by posting here initially instead of via email. Since this support forum is provided, paying customers should not have to use multiple reporting methods; my initial report here should have been sufficient.

Speaking of comprehension mode engaged; my inital post stated that I have returns.yahoogroups.com in my whitelist -- your first response to me included "have you read through the FAQ here and followed that specific Yahoo link yet?" It seems to me that if you had had comprehension mode engaged you would have realized (from reading my initial post) that I clearly had read the FAQ since I had implemented its suggestion.

You are making untrue statements in your postings to other discussions, mis-stating and mis-characterizing what has been said within this discussion

I have made exactly zero untrue statements. Yes, I have been vocal about the rude responses I have received, but that is not untrue.

Regardless of your belief as to me trying to be disruptive or not you caused significant disruption by moving a valid problem complaint thread into the "lounge" forum. This was an incredibly rude act on your part and you need to understand that your comments / actions are very inflamatory.

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I didn't realize that you have three topics going on this subject.

Since I don't have an email account, I don't know that I can be of much help.

The only suggestion I have is that you delete the whitelisting and try again. That often works with inexplicable computer glitches.

I don't know whether there is an email address that you can use to solve problems that seem to be limited to one user. There is for the reporting side. It is just that usually problems are solved more quickly by posters to the forum - particularly if they are problems that many users encounter.

I can identify with your frustration because I was not happy with having to go to a newsgroup (something brand new to me) when I had a problem with reporting. However, it really is a much better system than a help desk since you do get the benefit of more than one opinion. It is a good idea to remember that the people who are answering are 'peers' - other users, not employees. It is a subtle shift in attitude that might make communication better.

Miss Betsy

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I didn't realize that you have three topics going on this subject.

He really doesn't ... partially my fault for not keeping up with housekeeping ... he's just added his stuff to other discussions, applicable or not.

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Also, since we are getting the basics out of the way, the number of people "reporting" or "complaining about" this problem is exactly irrelevant -- so no comments such as "you are the only one; please go away" --

Yet another one of your untrue statements, mischaracterizations .. please cite where you see those words.

I am a paying customer with a valid problem and I really don't care if other people are or are not reporting the exact identical problem -- I just need my problem fixed.

Understood, but thanks for agreeing that thus far, it is "your" problem. Thank you.

A sample of one of the "held" messages is available at the following URL:

http://www.spamcop.net/sc?id=z709584943zd4...8060cfcb5e0819z

I understand completely that yahoogroups may have changed something that is currently breaking the whitelist function --

Again, the sample provided here matches the one StevenUnderwood already talked to. As you're the one with the data, pointing out a time-frame, how about looking at an old one and comparing the headers ... did Yahoo change something?

This problem is potentially in a similar category -- i.e. potentially yahoogroups has changed something, spamcop should respond with whitelist changes to allow the functionality to work again.

Once again, you're the one with the evidence, problem, and possibly the solution. Back to "help us help you" ....

(*) Coincidently, the beginning January timeframe also shows many other users reporting problems with yahoogroups -- though not necessarily verified and isolated to the spamcop whitelist -- intuition says these are probably related and it certainly is a good point for the developers to start with their root cause analysis search.

If you are referring to traffic in the Reporting Help Forum, there are no other complainants with issues involving a SpamCop Filtered E-Mail Account.

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Guest SkydiveMike
The only suggestion I have is that you delete the whitelisting and try again.  That often works with inexplicable computer glitches.

22448[/snapback]

If you read the thread, you will realize that this has been tried.

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Guest SkydiveMike

First; this is not a general rant -- please discontinue moving my actual problem reports to the "lounge" forum -- they do not belong there.

http://www.spamcop.net/sc?id=z709641962z6e...9b07e8599b2b21z

http://www.spamcop.net/sc?id=z709641967z74...52d81f1f49b76bz

http://www.spamcop.net/sc?id=z709642067za9...b2b72b9ac08367z

http://www.spamcop.net/sc?id=z709642072zd0...07ccad24fa29e1z

All of the above are yahoogroups emails that appeared in my held mail. As I have stated before I have the correct yahoogroups string in my whitelist as per the FAQ. These emails should not appear in my held mail; and do.

This is a problem with the spamcop filtered email system -- this post is in the email system forum -- please leave it here so that a spamcop developer/admin/owner may see it and begin to solve the problem. I am afraid that if this is in the "lounge" the developer/owner/admin will not see it.

If there is any further information that I can provide; please let me know what it is

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Guest SkydiveMike
Understood, but thanks for agreeing that thus far, it is "your" problem.  Thank you.

To be clear it is a spamcop filtered email problem that is affecting me

Again, the sample provided here matches the one StevenUnderwood already talked to.  As you're the one with the data, pointing out a time-frame, how about looking at an old one and comparing the headers ... did Yahoo change something?

Unfortunately I do not have old yahoogroups email from my held mail folder since prior to a few days ago my yahoogroups email appeared in my inbox and was processed properly by my horde filters. I "keep current" on the mailing lists I participate on, so I don't have any "old" messages to look at.

Once again, you're the one with the evidence, problem, and possibly the solution.  Back to "help us help you" ....

22453[/snapback]

Tell me what else you want -- I have posted numerous tracking URL's -- do you want a screen shot of my whitelist page with the yahoo entry in it? What?

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Coincidently, the beginning January timeframe also shows many other users reporting problems with yahoogroups -- though not necessarily verified and isolated to the spamcop whitelist -- intuition says these are probably related and it certainly is a good point for the developers to start with their root cause analysis search.

All of the other complaints I've read recently about problems receiving Yahoo Groups were *not* from people with SpamCop email accounts. They were all from people who suddenly couldn't receive their Groups messages at third-party ISP's who were blocking the messages based upon the SpamCop DNSBL.

I ran an experiment on your behalf, Mike. I belong to about a dozen Yahoo!Groups but I normally choose to read them on the Web. However, I want to leave my options open, so I, too have "returns.groups.yahoo.com" in my SC personal whitelist. Last night, I went in and changed my email prefs for two of the most active groups to "individual messages" and they're flowing through to my inbox just fine. This seems to contradict your recent experience, in that I've got the same setup as you do, and yet my whitelist settings are being successfully applied to the messages....here are the applicable lines from one of the messages I received overnight:

X-SpamCop-Disposition: Blocked bl.spamcop.net

X-SpamCop-Whitelisted: returns.groups.yahoo.com

If that's not happening for you, then your *only* recourse is to contact the owner/operator of the SpamCop email system, JT. He might be slow to respond, so send him a message a day until he does and please report back to us about the solution, once it happens.

Sorry that things got a little "heated" around here...most of the denizens of these forums are here to help.

DT

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Guest SkydiveMike

Yes, I am replying to myself -- bad etiquette -- apologies.

Here are some screen shots from my whitelist that shows my yahoo groups entry in my whitelist. According the the FAQ (and months of past experience) these entries should guarantee that yahoogroups email does not end up in Held Mail -- yet the tracking URLs I have been posting demonstrate otherwise.

Image1

Image2

Edited by SkydiveMike

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DING DING DING -- we have a winner

Oh, goody! I hardly ever win anything. ;)

(except for an occasional argument, that is...)

I have had the correct "returns.groups.yahoo.com" in my whitelist for months. Everything has been working for months. Two or three days ago it broke -- with no changes on my part.

Then something else seems to be wrong. Did anyone ask you if you're accessing your SpamCop email account on the web, and if perhaps you might have some filters that are being applied as you open your mailbox? That *could* cause a problem like this, I suppose.

In any case, I've supplied a specific response to Mike over in the topic in the Lounge here:

http://forum.spamcop.net/forums/index.php?...=15entry22469

DT

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Guest SkydiveMike
All of the other complaints I've read recently about problems receiving Yahoo Groups were *not* from people with SpamCop email accounts. They were all from people who suddenly couldn't receive their Groups messages at third-party ISP's who were blocking the messages based upon the SpamCop DNSBL.

Understood -- this doesn't mean 100% they are not related, however. I include it because it is another data point.

I ran an experiment on your behalf, Mike. I belong to about a dozen Yahoo!Groups but I normally choose to read them on the Web. However, I want to leave my options open, so I, too have "returns.groups.yahoo.com" in my SC personal whitelist. Last night, I went in and changed my email prefs for two of the most active groups to "individual messages" and they're flowing through to my inbox just fine. This seems to contradict your recent experience, in that I've got the same setup as you do, and yet my whitelist settings are being successfully applied to the messages....here are the applicable lines from one of the messages I received overnight:

X-SpamCop-Disposition: Blocked bl.spamcop.net

X-SpamCop-Whitelisted: returns.groups.yahoo.com

Thank you for actually understanding the problem and trying to help. I know you could have taken the easy way out and told me to read the FAQ -- but you didn't and for that I thank you.

It is interesting that our experiences differ; if you look at my current problem thread in the email forum (at least I hope it is there) you will see links to screen shots of my whitelist that show I have it entered and you will see tracking URL's that show email in held mail.

If that's not happening for you, then your *only* recourse is to contact the owner/operator of the SpamCop email system, JT. He might be slow to respond, so send him a message a day until he does and please report back to us about the solution, once it happens.

I have been posting here in the hopes that JT or some other developer/owner/admin can assist. Unfortunately I have been hampered by the constant movement of my problem reports to the lounge -- a forum that I am afraid JT/owner/admin/developer are not reading.

I have escalated to support[at]spamcop.net, but I am even afraid of that since I am includinglinks to the forum and by the time support clicks on them they may not work since my problem is being hidden in the lounge. I really don't have time to compose multiple problem descriptions to both the forum and the email, so sending links is really the best way. As a paying customer I should not have to post problem reports in multiple locations anyway.

I do not have a response from support[at]spamcop yet and am afraid that the summary judgement of "ranting" by the moderator and resultant punishment of moving my problem to the lounge will seriously delay any response -- i.e. my problem won't be treated as "real" because it is in the lounge.

Is there anything you can do to move my problem reports back to the correct forum?

Sorry that things got a little "heated" around here...most of the denizens of these forums are here to help.

22469[/snapback]

Based on your example I would have to agree -- based on other responses I have seen (both to my problem and to other users) I would have to disagree.

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All of the above are yahoogroups emails that appeared in my held mail.

Well, the first one is actually a reply to a report which I have already replied to seperately....not a yahoogroups problem.

The second one has the same header problems described earlier. The rules for whitelisting were written when the Return-Path: field was a constant. If they are not constant, there is no way to whitelist them. Again, groups.yahoo.com does NOT match groups.yahoo.com=sentto-3514713-18437-1104934199-mikes.mailinglists=pobox.com[at]bounce2.pobox.com

The third is again a problem with yahoo's Return-Path: header.

As is the fourth.

The only thing we could do here (or even JT the system administrator) is to remove the Yahoo whitelisting entry from the FAQ and state that due to the way yahoogroups is angling their headers, these messages can not be whitelisted.

Once again, this is NOT a problem with the spamcop email system. This is a problem with yahoogroups using compliant headers. Almost any system trying to use those headers for handling will fail.

Also, your whilelist entry returns.groups.yahoo.com is redundant as those same messages would be caught by the groups.yahoo.com entry.

Edited by StevenUnderwood

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David:

The problem (and I have answered this in several places where I had specific examples) is that the Return-Path: (which spamcop email uses for whitelisting) is not simply from groups.yahoo.com but has other "stuff" included as well. This might be added by a forwarder or by yahoo itself (thinking as I write this that the forwarder might be more reasonable as the problem has not been reported widespread).

This modification makes the whitelisting entry useless as it specificaly looks at the right end of the field to try and match. groups.yahoo.com does not equal groups.yahoo.commoretexthere

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If spamcop wanted a "peer only" forum they could have hosted one at yahoogroups.com, exboard.com, friends-of-spamcop.com or any other non spamcop official domain. The fact that the spamcop admins chose to put a forum at spamcop.net means that they created an official support forum.

Spamcop's "official" support forum IS this peer-peer forum with the few employees monitoring it for additional help when needed. You are correct, this IS the official support forum, but spamcop set it up to be peers helping peers and it has worked (and continues to work) well for many years. You will get a useful answer in a much shorter amount of time from people who actually use the system and know how it operates as opposed to talking to some "tech" who is reading a scripted manual asking you the same questions we are asking.

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