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dee-rob

Any advice for a victim of a cruel world?

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I'm an iPowerweb customer. My IP address with them is 66.235.192.80 (host123.ipowerweb.com).

For the second time this week I've had emails bounce back because of Spamcop blacklisting. I"ve read the FAQ, etc. and understand that within my shared server space someone must be doing something less than nice.

I've contacted iPowerweb, and there are help tickets from me and my domain (dee-rob.com) asking what they are doing to help resolve the issue.

However, here's my question:

My email is about to become even more crucial to me, because in a little over a week I am moving across the country. While I'm on the road, my own domain email would be the easiest way for me to be sure I can stay in touch.

Is there anything I can do as a quick, stopgap to get around or prevent or otherwise help myself from not getting blacklisted?

If the problem persists, I may have to at minimum switch servers and at maximum switch hosting companies, but I probably won't be able to get all that done and my website rebuilt in one week.

Any advice at all on what I can do would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Dee-rob

Edited by dee-rob

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According to spamcop's listing:

Causes of listing

System has sent mail to SpamCop spam traps in the past week (spam traps are secret, no reports or evidence are provided by SpamCop)

It appears this listing is caused by misdirected bounces. We have a FAQ which covers this topic: Why auto-responses are bad (Misdirected bounces). Please read this FAQ and heed the advice contained in it.

You need to get iPowerWeb to stop replying to forged sender addresses and they will not hit the spamtraps. There is one real report that I (as a paid reporter) can see, but that was back at the end of January. Since then was probably due to spamtraps.

If you are blocked, you can always send from any address (yahoo webmail) and have people send back to your personal domain. Yahoo at least lets you set your outgoing name and reply-to address.

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I'm an iPowerweb customer.  My IP address with them is 66.235.192.80 (host123.ipowerweb.com).

66.235.192.80 listed in bl.spamcop.net (127.0.0.2)

If there are no reports of ongoing objectionable email from this system it will be delisted automatically in approximately 16 hours.

Causes of listing

System has sent mail to SpamCop spam traps in the past week (spam traps are secret, no reports or evidence are provided by SpamCop)

It appears this listing is caused by misdirected bounces.

Listing History

In the past 3.5 days, it has been listed 2 times for a total of 38 hours

My email is about to become even more crucial to me, because in a little over a week I am moving across the country.  While I'm on the road, my own domain email would be the easiest way for me to be sure I can stay in touch.

Is there anything I can do as a quick, stopgap to get around or prevent or otherwise help myself from not getting blacklisted?

While their mail servers are blocklisted, use an SMTP server elsewhere (e.g., via SMTP auth) or use a webmail account (e.g., Yahoo or Hotmail). Unless you have cornered yourself via SPF or similar methods, nobody forces you to use the blocklisted mail servers at your hosting company.

If the problem persists, I may have to at minimum switch servers and at maximum switch hosting companies, but I probably won't be able to get all that done and my website rebuilt in one week.
That would be a good idea. Since their whole neighborhood looks spammy, you might consider switching to a different company.

Other hosts in this "neighborhood" with spam reports

66.235.192.11 66.235.192.24 66.235.192.50 66.235.192.93 66.235.192.108 66.235.192.121 66.235.192.134 66.235.192.147 66.235.192.160 66.235.192.173 66.235.192.186 66.235.192.212 66.235.193.11 66.235.193.41 66.235.193.51

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I was afraid of those answers. I don't really like the solution of not being able to use my own site for the SMTP, mostly just because of branding and identity.

It seems pretty ***** to me, an innocent person who has bad neighbors, has to rely on free email accounts and servers.

Put me on the list with the various flamers on this board who have blown up over the blocking/blacklisting of entire IP addresses and ranges. Since my weblog comments get spammed on a regular basis, I understand the philosophy behind blacklisting.

However, when it means that innocent people can't get through, it seems like the baby is getting thrown out with the bathwater. It's not an Internet philosophy I embrace.

D

Edited by Wazoo

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I was afraid of those answers.  I don't really like the solution of not being able to use my own site for the SMTP, mostly just because of branding and identity.

Easy answer to that .... spend the bicks, fet and run your own mail-server.

It seems pretty ***** to me, an innocent person who has bad neighbors, has to rely on free email accounts and servers. 

On the other hand, of one does a search "here" for "ipowerweb" ... one finds that this is a recurring issue for their users. Flip side to that os noticing that a half-dozen hosting ISPs I'm involved with, my cable ISP, and four local ISPs have yet to make this kind of an appearance here .. even once ...

Put me on the list with the various flamers on this board who have blown up over the blocking/blacklisting of entire IP addresses and ranges.

"Entire IP addresses" ...??? definition needed as an IP is an IP ... nothing more.

For IP address ranges, please take your complaint elsewhere ... SpamCopBL doesn't do "ranges"

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Honestly, I've used them for a couple of years, because they were affordable to me and at the time of setting up my site, the risk analysis I did made it an OK situation. Basically, my searches at the time did not bring up any of the issues that a search would bring up today.

Ironically, if you were to search Google, for example, for iPowerWeb and Spamcop together for the time period when I first set up my site, the complaints were against their USING Spamcop, because it was too virulent and iPowerWeb was filtering perfectly good mail.

I haven't migrated to other hosting, because it's been easier not to, even as the variables have changed.

Never in that time have I had any problems either, until now, so talking to me like I'm a moron who can't make a good decision helps neither one of us.

I can see why your name, Wazoo, shows up in many of the flame fests. I philosophically disagree with blacklisting. I coincidentally use a hosting service a lot of you hate because of spamming. Does that provide the license to talk sanctimoniously and rudely to me?

How do you propose I

spend the bicks, fet and run your own mail-server

whilst driving cross country?

(I'm assuming that's "spend the bucks and run my own server," but I can't guess at the meaning of "fet.")

Edited by dee-rob

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I just pulled one of my teeth in order to try to stop some of the pain from this last week ... excuse me for not being able to focus on the keyboard. At this point, you are welcome to take your "rude and sanctimoniously" crap and put it somewhere nice and cozy. You asked a question, answers have been offered. You don't like them? Sorry about that. Wazoo shows up all over the place here as Wazoo was asked to help Moderate, then got put into the Admin role of this application. Wazoo hasn't been posting a lot of late (see the above), but your responses to others offering their help demanded something above what had been offered.

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I don't really like the solution of not being able to use my own site for the SMTP, mostly just because of branding and identity.

You can use it, but it might be blocked by people who don't want the garbage coming from that server. By setting the name and reply-to address, most people will not even know you are using yahoo (or any of the other services) to send your messages.

whilst driving cross country?

While the timing might not be right. There is no reason you need even be in the same state as the mail server you are using, even if running your own.

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You can use it, but it might be blocked by people who don't want the garbage coming from that server.  By setting the name and reply-to address, most people will not even know you are using yahoo (or any of the other services) to send your messages.

While the timing might not be right.  There is no reason you need even be in the same state as the mail server you are using, even if running your own.

Yes, and true enough. I guess my problem is unique, though. The moment that I am selling almost everything and will be living out of my car until I get to San Jose happens to be the same moment my little corner of the Internet is being Spamcopped.

Until I arrive at my boyfriend's place in California, I have no place in the physical universe to set up a server. And, the delay in registering with a new hosting company and getting my new DNS stuff set up, not to mention porting everything over is just bad all around.

Like I said, the policy of blacklisting across an IP is killing me, an individual with my own personal set of issues related to relocating.

I guess I will just tell everyone who knows me to use my gmail account as a backup, and/or set up a Yahoo account to use their server, since I cannot rely on my own domain. It just sucks for me, I guess.

Of course, that is among the reasons, including my degree in Journalism, that I will never endorse Spamcop's blacklisting policies. I understand the logic, but don't agree with the principles.

Thanks all for your help. (Well, those of you who offered suggestions without criticizing whole cloth, as it were.)

Edited by dee-rob

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If you have a journalism degree, you had better do your research better on the stories you publish! And develop a more objective and less personal attitude.

It may suck for you at this particular moment in life to have to set up a yahoo account, but the whole principle is the ONLY way that spam can be controlled on the internet - which you would find out if you had had time to do research.

Miss Betsy

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I guess I will just tell everyone who knows me to use my gmail account as a backup

Unless you are not telling the entire story, there is no reason to tell the people who are sending you messages any different address to use. Messages to you are not being blocked because your sending server is listed. You can still receive your messages with no problem.

The only problem would be that certain recipients who are protected by the spamcop bl would reject your message only while it is listed.

You could also ask those recipients to whitelist your address and then you would never have another problem. Most bl systems have some way to whitelist. Whether it is configurable for the end user (depending on where the blocking is configured) is another question.

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I understand the logic, but don't agree with the principles.

24804[/snapback]

No, my friend, you don't understand the logic. Your talk about blacklisting entire IPs makes no sense. An IP address is the smallest possible unit to be blacklisted. There is no blacklisting of half an IP or a quarter of an IP.

Futhermore, you do not need a specific physical location to set your up own mail server. A mail server is something that you can buy over the Internet from a hosting provider. It sits in a data center somewhere. It makes no difference whether you are at home or traveling.

More generally, if you have only one SMTP server and no backup, that is really *****. What do you do when you cannot reach that server because of problems at your hosting company, e.g., a power outage, server upgrade, DOS attack, etc? Such things happen much more frequently than the blocklisting of a mail server affecting non-spammers.

If you insist that the mail you send out comes "From:" your name and domain email address, you can sign up with a commercial SMTP-auth provider. That takes about 10 minutes. You would only need to change the settings for the outgoing server in your email program. The recipients of your mail would not notice that anything has changed unless they check the Internet headers.

EDIT: Misunderstood language removed after other user's suggestion.

Edited by swingspacers

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Wow, you people are amazing, and so completely sure of yourselves. How wonderful that must be for you.

I'll stop posting here, but since I've been called stupid and otherwise derided, a couple of clarifications.

(1) I am essentially a victim here, so there is no need to speak to me as though I am a spammer, guilty until proven innocent. The way I see it, I had the misfortune to move into a bad neighborhood, and now that the police have surrounded the place, my choices become more limited. Had I a crystal ball, I suppose I would have been able to better choice my hosting company.

(2) No, I am not a system administrator paid to know everything about mail serving, etc. But, I'm not an idiot either. Forgive my ineloquence in describing some of what is occurring. Basically, I know I have options with other mail servers and hosting services. I need my website and my mail to provide a unified identity, so I would want to move everything to new hosting. Sadly for me, all of my email troubles are happening when I just don't have time to handle them because of my impending move.

(3) I'm mostly worried about the many people on my list who are not at all tech savvy. If anything about my email appears sort of mismatched, there's a lot of ways in which they will get confused. I just want to minimize confusion while I am in my car and unable to help sort things out (or stay in touch easily).

(4) I've been saying "across IP addresses" not because I have no idea what or how IP addresses work, but because hosting companies SHARE addresses. So, yeah, some dink somewhere within 66.235.192.80 is your enemy. I, however, am not. Both of us are blocked (as well as many other innocents, no doubt).

(5) It should not be news to some of you that not everyone on the web agrees with blacklisting. In your vigilance to stop spam, you have stopped me an innocent party. That is the inherent weakness in any kind of blacklist, the collateral damage.

Don't act like you are better than me or I should blindly accept my fate, just because it's a big, bad world and you don't like my hosting company. I don't deserve that level of disrespect.

Edited by dee-rob

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I am essentially a victim here, so there is no need to speak to me as though I am a spammer, guilty until proven innocent.
I do not see where anyone has spoken to you as if you were a spammer.

The way I see it, I had the misfortune to move into a bad neighborhood, and now that the police have surrounded the place, my choices become more limited.
Several choices to solve your problem were offered.

I need my website and my mail to provide a unified identity, so I would want to move everything to new hosting.
You can provide a unified identity while hosting your web server and your mail server at two different places.

Sadly for me, all of my email troubles are happening when I just don't have time to handle them because of my impending move.
Not our fault.

So, yeah, some dink somewhere within  66.235.192.80 is your enemy.  I, however, am not.  Both of us are blocked (as well as many other innocents, no doubt).
If you support a company that engages in irresponsible mailing practices by paying them for hosting, you are not an innocent.

In your vigilance to stop spam, you have stopped me an innocent party.  That is the inherent weakness in any kind of blacklist, the collateral damage.
That is actually one of the strengths of blocklisting. Some ISPs and hosting providers believe that they can augment their business by hosting a few spammers in addition to their usual customers. Once they get blocklisted, their honest customers are inconvenienced and move to other providers. In that way blocklisting makes sure that hosting spammers is not a good business move for providers that want to have honest customers.

Don't act like you are better than me or I should blindly accept my fate
We did not say that, but offered you several solutions to your problem.

just because it's a big, bad world and you don't like my hosting company.
It is not about liking or disliking your hosting company. They get listed automatically when they engage in irresponsible mailing practices and delisted automatically once they fix their problems.

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No direspect, but we have as much right to protect from spammers as you do to surf the net. Spammers are a criminal and abusive group of individuals who do nothing but scam and steal identities and clutter the internet with their spew. As long as you are in a bad neighbourhood knowingly and unwilling to clean that neighbourhood you are no longer an inocent victim but guilty by association.

Several people have suggested ways to change your attitude and way you do your business, but you come back with a bunch of misconceptions and are not willing to listen or change. So, no, you are deffinitely not going to get my sympathy!

Edited by dra007

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No direspect, but we have as much right to protect from spammers as you do to surf the net. Spammers are a criminal and abusive group of individuals who do nothing but scam and still identities and clutter the internet with their spew. As long as you are in a bad neighbourhood knowingly and unwilling to clean that neighbourhood you are no longer an inocent victim but guilty by association.

Several people have suggested ways to change your attitude and way you do your business, but you come back with a bunch of misconceptions and are not willing to listen or change. So, no, you are deffinitely not going to get my sympathy!

24822[/snapback]

Sadly, I think this is just another example of miscommunication on the web. Yes, I acknowledge some of the answers were helpful (and I mentioned that above). However, I also got called stupid, my journalist integrety was pointlessly maligned and several of the answers read quite disdainfully.

And, guess what? Just as my alledged unwillingness to listen will get me no sympathy, all of the posters talking to me like I'm scummy or a dolt, engender no converts to your cause.

I will very likely "clean my neighborhood," or at least try. So far I have three calls, one Internet chat and two emails into my hosting service in a five-day period. I'm doing everything you would suggest on that end.

Also, I will probably switch companies, if I can afford it, but not this week, because I'll be in a car. The time and money I will have to invest is a problem and some of the solutions here are on par with telling someone next to a crack house, "Duh, you should move," or worse "You're an idiot for living in a bad neighborhood." Moving is easier said than done and not always black and white.

Thank you, dra007, though, for at least respectfully disagreeing.

I'm not, however, going to take your bait on arguing the level of either one of our rights and the extremities necessary to battle spam. I simply don't agree, and I am not alone or foolish.

Edited by dee-rob

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Wow, you people are amazing, and so completely sure of yourselves.  How wonderful that must be for you.

It's called experience, knowledge, and application of both. This Forum is a way to share that stuff.

I'll stop posting here, but since I've been called stupid and otherwise derided, a couple of clarifications.

I defy you to actually point out where you have been called stupid, called a moron, called a spammer, any of the crap you keep somehow reading into the responses provided by others in here.

(1) I am essentially a victim here,

Current listing shows;

66.235.192.80 listed in bl.spamcop.net (127.0.0.2)

If there are no reports of ongoing objectionable email from this system it will be delisted automatically in approximately zero time.

So, just as the trigger went off for listing, apparently, it's almost time for the IP to come out of the penalty box. One would assume that this means that ipowerweb took care of the spammer that caused the issue (once again?)

so there is no need to speak to me as though I am a spammer, guilty until proven innocent. 

Again, you asked questions, suggestions and answers were offered. Your interpretation is absurd.

(2) No, I am not a system administrator paid to know everything about mail serving, etc.  But, I'm not an idiot either.  Forgive my ineloquence in describing some of what is occurring.

This makes little sense. You described some blocking action taken by some ISP somewhere, but you did reference the IP on question. Folks have talked about the IP issue, history of that ISP has been indicated, on and on. The "Why am I Blocked?" FAQ entry was written up to educate folks that don't have a clue. Thus far, it hasn't been sen that you availd yourself to that knowledge in the Pinned "read before posting" entry or looked at the FAQ.

Basically, I know I have options with other mail servers and hosting services.  I need my website and my mail to provide a unified identity, so I would want to move everything to new hosting.  Sadly for me, all of my email troubles are happening when I just don't have time to handle them because of my impending move.

Totally your call, but taking those suggestions as calling you names is more than a bit silly.

(3) I'm mostly worried about the many people on my list who are not at all tech savvy.  If anything about my email appears sort of mismatched, there's a lot of ways in which they will get confused.  I just want to minimize confusion while I am in my car and unable to help sort things out (or stay in touch easily).

Of course, explaining to the folks "on your list" appears to be an impossible task ...???? Seems like a couple of sentences would clear up any "confusion" .. but then again, look at the way you've read things offered here ...???

(4) I've been saying "across IP addresses" not because I have no idea what or how IP addresses work, but because hosting companies SHARE addresses.  So, yeah, some dink somewhere within  66.235.192.80 is your enemy.  I, however, am not.  Both of us are blocked (as well as many other innocents, no doubt).

You continue with these strange comments and thoughts. Although some cheap ISPs offer a "virtual" server that may actually host many Domains, it's pretty rare that an e-mal server is anything but an e-mail server. In that case, it's not so much a shared IP that's the issue, it's the e-mail server shared amongst the users, and again, the SpamCopBL is based on identifying the source of spam spew. If the e-mail headers actually identified the user's system/IP, that's what would end up on the list. But that's only one version of spew material involved ... try reading the FAQ to see many other problem areas.

(5) It should not be news to some of you that not everyone on the web agrees with blacklisting.  In your vigilance to stop spam, you have stopped me an innocent party.  That is the inherent weakness in any kind of blacklist, the collateral damage.

The world awaits your "better" solution, noting that spammers have worked around almost everything else.

Don't act like you are better than me or I should blindly accept my fate, just because it's a big, bad world and you don't like my hosting company.  I don't deserve that level of disrespect.

And again, you somehow have missed all the varied suggestions offered for at least a temporary solution. This "hate your ISP" thing is also more than a bit silly. If anything, there'd be the wish that this host could be as anonymous as 99% of the other ISPs in the world. The catch is, they keep showing up "here" identified by ticked off customers over their repeated listings on the SpamCopBL. Something is obviously wrong in the way they handle their spam spew problems.

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As of right now, the IP 66.235.192.80 is not listed, so much of the discussion here is moot.

Of course this situation could change.....

Chris

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Of course, that is among the reasons, including my degree in Journalism, that I will never endorse Spamcop's blacklisting policies.

I don't know what a degree in Journalism has to do with whether blocklists are a good thing or not. However, a degree in Journalism ought to have taught you to research the alternatives before making a judgment. It also ought to have taught you to keep your personal problems out of your judgments.

It is a real pain that you are having problems right now even if setting up a yahoo account is not such a big chore - any extra thing is too much, I know, when you are making a move. Certainly in your shoes I would feel like ranting and raving also. That does not mean that blocklisting is not an effective means of controlling spam. I am inconvenienced all the time offline because of criminals so that I have to have ID to cash a check, have to lock my doors, have to do this and that. I don't know how many times I have locked myself out (I can't get used to locking doors). Fortunately I have an honest face and some people will let me write out of state checks, but I could rant and rave about having to jump through hoops when I am not a thief or bad check writer or shop lifter and yet have to deal with all the security checks to prevent them from operating.

I really hope that when the stress of moving is over that you think about this whole subject a little more carefully.

Miss Betsy

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if you have only one SMTP server and no backup, that is really stupid. ...

To summarize: Your problem is your own stupidity, not SpamCop.

24815[/snapback]

That kind of language is not welcome here.

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That kind of language is not welcome here.

24841[/snapback]

And what about "sh**ty" (now edited by Wazoo), "crap," "idiot," and "moron" used in posts by other people? Also note that this language was not used to refer to a person, but to describe unwise ways of running systems without the necessary redundancy. The offending language has been removed and I apologize for the misunderstanding.

Edited by swingspacers

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Thank you, Jeff G. It was stuff like that post that was making me even more uncomfortable with this whole thing. And, Thanks Miss Betsy for understanding the angst of being hit with this problem while I'm trying to move.

I wasn't going to post any more, especially since at the moment my IP is unblocked. But, now I've gotten this email (sorry if it's impolite to post the whole thing and take up space), and I'm at a loss as to what is expected of me.

I am sending it to my hosting company as well.

*****

From abuse[at]despam.us Sat Feb 26 18:26:50 2005

Return-Path: <abuse[at]despam.us>

Delivered-To: dee-robc-bogus59861[at]dee-rob.com

Received: (qmail 26792 invoked from network); 26 Feb 2005 23:29:40 -0000

Received: from unknown (HELO smtp110.mail.sc5.yahoo.com) (66.163.170.8)

by host123.ipowerweb.com with SMTP; 26 Feb 2005 23:29:40 -0000

Received: from unknown (HELO testarmada) (jeffgent1[at]24.193.127.128 with login)

by smtp110.mail.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 26 Feb 2005 23:25:50 -0000

Message-ID: <001001c51c5a$818664b0$af10a8c0[at]testarmada>

From: "Abuse Desk" <abuse[at]despam.us>

To: <bogus59861[at]dee-rob.com>

Cc: "Abuse Desk" <abuse[at]despam.us>

Subject: Test bogus59861[at]dee-rob.com

Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 18:25:26 -0500

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain;

charset="iso-8859-1"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

X-Priority: 3

X-MSMail-Priority: Normal

X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478

Disposition-Notification-To: "Abuse Desk" <abuse[at]despam.us>

X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478

Test of bogus59861[at]dee-rob.com due to alleged problems concerning

forgery blow-back - please see

http://www.spamcop.net/fom-serve/cache/329.html for details.

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dee-rob (or is it D., Dee, Dee-Rob, Denise, or "hot, hot, hot"?),

You're welcome. That email was a test. I know who sent it. That you received it means that you receive any and all mail sent to your domain, regardless of the address (with perhaps a few exceptions for friends and family that have real addresses at your domain). That can become a problem if some spammer tries a dictionary attack on your domain (trying to spam many different addresses obtained from a dictionary and a list of common first names).

If that test email had bounced after delivery, it would have proved that your domain (or all domains using host123.ipowerweb.com) for mail was bouncing mail after delivery (engaging in forgery blow-back), which has turned into a Bad Thing.

You no longer need to do anything with that email, although sharing the URL it contains with your hosting provider might help to convince them of the error of their ways.

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dee-rob (or is it D., Dee, Dee-Rob, Denise, or "hot, hot, hot"?),

You're welcome.  That email was a test.  I know who sent it.  That you received it means that you receive any and all mail sent to your domain, regardless of the address (with perhaps a few exceptions for friends and family that have real addresses at your domain).  That can become a problem if some spammer tries a dictionary attack on your domain (trying to spam many different addresses obtained from a dictionary and a list of common first names).

If that test email had bounced after delivery, it would have proved that your domain (or all domains using host123.ipowerweb.com) for mail was bouncing mail after delivery (engaging in forgery blow-back), which has turned into a Bad Thing.

You no longer need to do anything with that email, although sharing the URL it contains with your hosting provider might help to convince them of the error of their ways.

24845[/snapback]

OK, cool and thanks.

And, yup the name is all of those things. As you can probably tell, since you quoted from it, my site is a vanity/marketing site for writing and comedy. Not the end of the world or commerce as we know it if I get shut down, but as a performer/writer, very much part of my identity.

Of course, the only other crisis (to me alone) is my ability to be confident about email if I'm wandering across these United States.

The blowback email has been forwarded to the abuse department of ipowerweb.com, and I guess all is well with the world (for now).

By the way, forgive my ignorance and over simplification, but one question: It's a good thing, right, that I receive any email with incorrect addressing, but still my domain, right?

The bouncing is the bad thing, right?

D

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note that this language was not used to refer to a person,

24842[/snapback]

Sorry, "your own stupidity" did refer to a person.
but to describe unwise ways of running systems without the necessary redundancy. The offending language has been removed and I apologize for the misunderstanding.

24842[/snapback]

It wasn't so much the words as the ad-hominem attack of our guest's intelligence vs. a reasoned discussion of her hosting provider's lack of fault-tolerance in MX records. http://www.dnsreport.com/tools/dnsreport.c...ain=dee-rob.com puts it much more kindly: "WARNING: You only have 1 MX record. If your primary mail server is down or unreachable, there is a chance that mail may have troubles reaching you."

I accept your apology; dee-rob can accept it or not as she sees fit.

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