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Wazoo

Forums, Newsgroups, Netiquette, Rules, Etc.

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minor note here .. from the front page, Forum list:

SpamCop Help

A forum to help users with the SpamCop Reporting System. Questions about SpamCop Email should be directed to the appropriate forum, not this one.

Though increasing your knowledge is always a wonderful thing, that you've already posted this (as you said) over in the newsgroup, and you've noted most folks here are newbies, is this the proper place to try to carry on a disussion on a subject such as this?

Edited by Wazoo

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Jeffg, it seems a member here has a personal axe to grind. Can we initiate a policy of autoremove for all inapproprite material ?

Thanks

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Jeffg, it seems a member here has a personal axe to grind. Can we initiate a policy of autoremove for all inapproprite material ?

Thanks

What, exactly, do you feel is inappropriate? Thanks!

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<hat style=Moderator>

Wazoo, David appears to have been continuing here a discussion that started on spamcop.help about which tools to use and how to present when researching alternative reportee addresses that would eventually end up being recommended in spamcop.routing. Given the split of users, I think it was appropriate for him to come here asking for "EXPERT feedback". His post had nothing to do with the SpamCop Email System.

David, for each new post you make, please try to mention why you picked that Forum or News Group.

Both of you, please try to act in a more professional and dignified manner.

Everyone except Admins and Deputies, please refrain from emailing me outside the Forums unless I specifically authorize it. Picking out the <0.1% unsolicited ham is getting tougher each day, and a mistake has already happened.

Thanks!

</hat>

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<hat style=Moderator>

Wazoo, David appears to have been continuing here a discussion that started on spamcop.help about which tools to use and how to present when researching alternative reportee addresses that would eventually end up being recommended in spamcop.routing.

Yes, JeffG. You'll also note that I'd made the first response to the OP's query in that very thread. Simple question, simple answer.

Given the split of users, I think it was appropriate for him to come here asking for "EXPERT feedback".  His post had nothing to do with the SpamCop Email System.

Though cut/pasting the entire Forum description did include the E-mail portion, my keypoint was that it also didn't reference the SpamCop reporting tool... in the back of my mind, there was a hint of suggesting that a Geeks Forum be started for something like this ... bu tthat went back to the Forums for the newbies that can't figure out or dislike NNTP, and the geeks newsgroup is still in place and referenced ... so left that out of the commentary.

David, for each new post you make, please try to mention why you picked that Forum or News Group. 

poor guy has been getting hit pretty hard lately for crossposting ...

Both of you, please try to act in a more professional and dignified manner.

I had him killfiled in the newsgroups, filterd on e-mail, but it was the "Mr. Newbie" response that set me off in here. Shouldn't happen again for several reasons.

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Given the split of users, I think it was appropriate for him to come here asking for "EXPERT feedback".  His post had nothing to do with the SpamCop Email System.

It has nothing to do with help with either the spamcop reporting system or why one's email is blocked by the scbl.

If people prefer the web forum to the newsgroups, for whatever reason, that's fine. However, there needs to be an uncluttered forum for simple, particularly newbie, questions on how spamcop works.

IMHO, the forum for help should NOT include questions on why am I blocked either.

If people want to discuss more complicated problems of how to find headers or upstreams or what will defeat spam or how to configure sendmail or whatever, then there should be a separate forum for that. And I don't know why people cannot be directed to the newsgroups - particularly if the responder prefers the newsgroup.

The purpose of the forum was to make it easier for newcomers to get help. The same rationale of keeping it simple and uncluttered should apply to the forum as well as the newsgroup.

If people want to switch back and forth, that's fine also - particularly on discussions. It used to happen in the newsgroups, that discussions on a particular topic would be going on simultaneously in spamcop, .mail, and .help.

Again, my primary complaint is a lack of clear direction - on the web page for help and feedback (which doesn't mention that help can be obtained through the newsgroups for "advanced" users). On the forums where there is discussion about far from simple problems in the so-called help group and where the "announcements" section is also a discussion place. And there is no place to "click" that I have found on the web page that lets me see all the groups. I seem to go directly to the Help forum.

I may sound a little testy, but it is because, while I know there were many comments against the web forum, there were a bunch of constructive posts and there have been a couple here about ways to improve the forum. Where to post to have a discussion for suggestions is also an enigma. But there never has been any discussion or even acknowledgment that those posts were read.

I happened to visit another message board where there, apparently, was a way to "thread" replies so that you could make a partial reply to one post. That's a real advantage IMHO.

And I must have missed the "inappropriate" post and the unprofessional material. AFAICT, there has been nothing against the rules, because there are no guidelines on what is appropriate to post (other than a ban against obscene language, etc.).

Miss Betsy

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Given the split of users, I think it was appropriate for him to come here asking for "EXPERT feedback".  His post had nothing to do with the SpamCop Email System.

It has nothing to do with help with either the spamcop reporting system or why one's email is blocked by the scbl.

If people prefer the web forum to the newsgroups, for whatever reason, that's fine. However, there needs to be an uncluttered forum for simple, particularly newbie, questions on how spamcop works.

IMHO, the forum for help should NOT include questions on why am I blocked either.

If people want to discuss more complicated problems of how to find headers or upstreams or what will defeat spam or how to configure sendmail or whatever, then there should be a separate forum for that. And I don't know why people cannot be directed to the newsgroups - particularly if the responder prefers the newsgroup.

The purpose of the forum was to make it easier for newcomers to get help. The same rationale of keeping it simple and uncluttered should apply to the forum as well as the newsgroup.

If people want to switch back and forth, that's fine also - particularly on discussions. It used to happen in the newsgroups, that discussions on a particular topic would be going on simultaneously in spamcop, .mail, and .help.

Again, my primary complaint is a lack of clear direction - on the web page for help and feedback (which doesn't mention that help can be obtained through the newsgroups for "advanced" users). On the forums where there is discussion about far from simple problems in the so-called help group and where the "announcements" section is also a discussion place.

It appears that a Forum for discussion of spam and spam fighting (like the spamcop newsgroup) would be helpful for this.

And there is no place to "click" that I have found on the web page that lets me see all the groups.  I seem to go directly to the Help forum.
All of the SpamCop Forums are accessible from http://forum.spamcop.net/forums/index.php?act=idx , which is accessible by clicking on the "SpamCop Discussion" Link at the top of many pages.

I may sound a little testy, but it is because, while I know there were many comments against the web forum, there were a bunch of constructive posts and there have been a couple here about ways to improve the forum.  Where to post to have a discussion for suggestions is also an enigma.  But there never has been any discussion or even acknowledgment that those posts were read.

I happened to visit another message board where there, apparently, was a way to "thread" replies so that you could make a partial reply to one post.  That's a real advantage IMHO.

And I must have missed the "inappropriate" post and the unprofessional material.  AFAICT, there has been nothing against the rules, because there are no guidelines on what is appropriate to post (other than a ban against obscene language, etc.).

Certainly, more rules and policies would be helpful.

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QUOTE (Miss Betsy [at] Feb 17 2004, 11:48 AM)

And there is no place to "click" that I have found on the web page that lets me see all the groups.  I seem to go directly to the Help forum.

JeffG:  All of the SpamCop Forums are accessible from http://forum.spamcop.net/forums/index.php?act=idx , which is accessible by clicking on the "SpamCop Discussion" Link at the top of many pages.

Obviously I knew that because I have found the "announcements" I am trying to look at this from the point of view of a newbie - which in the matter of web forums I am. I am not afraid to try things (and some people claim that I am the fool who rushes in where angels fear to tread) and so I found it.

For clarity's sake, however, the web page which brings you to the forum, should either have all the fora listed (as it does help and email help) or it should bring you to the main page so that you can pick the appropriate forum (or look at them to determine which is the appropriate one for your use).

Another suggestions: And perhaps, now that Julian has posted (which must be the "last word" on the ATT problem), shouldn't it be moved to the "announcements"? Or pinned?

Miss Betsy

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Another suggestions:  And perhaps, now that Julian has posted (which must be the "last word" on the ATT problem), shouldn't it be moved to the "announcements"? Or pinned?

Thanks for the suggestion. I have pinned it.

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arrrrgggghhh .. but you pinned the whole conversation .... How about snipping the "Announcement/FAQ/Whattheheckitshouldreallybecalled just down to the pertinent data that Julian did up ... and perhaps more of a title to show that it's an AT&T thing ?????

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arrrrgggghhh .. but you pinned the whole conversation ....  How about snipping the "Announcement/FAQ/Whattheheckitshouldreallybecalled just down to the pertinent data that Julian did up ... and perhaps more of a title to show that it's an AT&T thing ?????

OK, I fixed it. I unpinned the SpamCop Help Topic and reposted Julian's reply in an Announcement.

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Yeah, darn it ... I just saw that .. now I've gotta do it again ... from the eyes of a disgruntled user with a hot issue ... do you think that "Announcements" is going to be where they're going to go?

I'm still going to say that there really needs to be a separate Forum / Blocked section for these FAQ issues. I know JT said it being worked, but ... I just checked the Help button again, nothing new there that I could see ... and Announcements just doesn't have the right "ring" to it to draw the folks in for "issues"

Edited by Wazoo

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If, when users come to the web forum, they are directed to the page with *all* the forums listed, and /if/ they are directed to check announcements for "fixed" problems before searching the help forum, then maybe some will.

Actually, the pinned FAQ seem to be helping since there are not very many questions about "why am I blocked?" or "Would send". I don't know if that is because no one has found the web forum, can't work it if they do find it, or because they find out what they need to know. Maybe the statistics could tell.

Miss Betsy

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It appears that a Forum for discussion of spam and spam fighting (like the spamcop newsgroup) would be helpful for this.

Certainly, more rules and policies would be helpful

I didn't have a chance to thank you for your prompt reply. Do the above quotes mean that these things are under discussion? Or that you are being "help desky"?

And, FTR, I am not in favor of any rules except to be polite and patient and not flippant with newcomer help questions and to move topics to the proper forum to reduce "noise". Like the internet, the way to stop "flame wars" and "trolls" is for participants to killfile them (or since that is one of things I have never bothered to find out how to do, just ignore). Except for the help group(s - if there is one for reporting and for why am I blocked) - there the moderator should stop it immediately. JAT - there could be a "flame" forum - sometimes they are really fun to read!

Miss Betsy

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"Under discussion" might be the best way to phrase it, seeing as how "we're" still discussing it <g> Last comments I recall from JT was that the 'help faqs' were 'in the process', he was looking at changes that may allow 'user input' (shades of the early days of the FAQ-o-matic) ... but then again, I also recall him muttering out-loud about going to yet another bit of software for this Forum thingy ..... and now he's been "tasked" to go do some reseach on the Baysean stuff ... I'm gussing he's holding a couple of full plates right about now and wishing he could set one down and go grab a cold one <g>

to killfile them (or since that is one of things I have never bothered to find out how to do ...)

I think you're still using OE ... with posting selected, top of the OE window;

Message | Block Sender

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I'm gussing he's holding a couple of full plates right about now and wishing he could set one down and go grab a cold one <g>

That's ok by me to wait for a decision - as long as it is being discussed and I haven't been killfiled. ;)

One reason that I have never used the block sender is because. like the old saw about clocks, I never have found a poster that, at one time or another, I didn't read a post that wasn't useless. A lot of negatives in that sentence! And I haven't grabbed a cold one yet. But soon....

Miss Betsy

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<scratching his spinning head>

Ok, I am thoroughly confused! NO-ONE made any clear announcement on the NG side that the forums were newbie-focused that I saw or heard of! Did I miss a whole discussion ? If so, EXCUUUSE me.

The only reason I brought this over here was Jeff G's remark to ME that JT was mostly monitoring here if I wanted to get his attention. So that was what I did. Shoot me for following directions! Yep, maybe we need an "expert questions" forum if THIS one is to remain newbie friendly.

The original NG post was clearly (to me) by a newbie, the way it was phrased and thought out, so I thought the topic was appropriate in both places.

As far as behavior on here and the NG: I have NO problem following the suggestions Jeff made.

I think we could ALL behave a little more adult. We need to be setting the tone for newbies, NOT operating at the lowest possible denominator. If someone feels a compelling need to killfile or ignore me, that is THEIR problem. I intend to be part of the solution...

"Can't we all just get along ?"

8-)>

(yes, I actually DO wear glasses and have a goatee. LOL)

David

PS: Jeff, could everything that does NOT have anything to do with "Upstreams & Adjacencies" be lifted and moved to a "board etiquette" thread or soeting more pertinent. The original topic is lost in the noise level now...

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<scratching his spinning head>

Ok, I am thoroughly confused! NO-ONE made any clear announcement on the NG side that the forums were newbie-focused that I saw or heard of! Did I miss a whole discussion ? If so, EXCUUUSE me.

My initial response would be along the lines of - no, no one said those "exact" words in such a limited way" ..... yes, apparently you missed a lot of discussion, even JT's reasoning behind going to the web-based thing to begin with .... but, if I actually said those things, I'm guessing that you're going to take them as yet another personal attack ???

The original premise for moving support to a web-based Forum is addressed by the "users that can't seem to handle NNTP newsgroups" .... reinforced by the fact that the "e-mail" users were already accessing the system via a web browser, thus the easy justification of killing the NNTP e-mail groups first.

The only reason I brought this over here was Jeff G's remark to ME that JT was mostly monitoring here if I wanted to get his attention. So that was what I did. Shoot me for following directions!

I went back and looked, but I don't see any kind of a "this is just for JT" note on that posting. As far as JT spending his time over here, apparently you skipped over all the complaining about just that fact, but, if you re-read above, JT was spending time over 'here' becasue that's where the "e-mail" support was supposed to be handled .... major threshold point being the day he changed the SpamCop "help" pointers to these Forums ... and apparently you skipped the bitching that was done about that and the way it was done .. (again, not a personal attack here, just suggesting that you didn't read all the newsgroup postings ... lots of folks don't, only reading what interests them)

Yep, maybe we need an "expert questions" forum if THIS one is to remain newbie friendly.

Good suggestion, fits right in with the current conversation. But, as I'd said a bit ago in a previous .... spamcop and pamcop.geeks aren't / weren't slated to disappear, so that kind of discussion should remain there.

The original NG post was clearly (to me) by a newbie, the way it was phrased and thought out, so I thought the topic was appropriate in both places.

If we agree that the OP was a newbie, then why you would expect the OP to even begin to understand the data that even you were so unsure about? Take a look at that original post of yours, turn back time just a bit, and look at it with "newbie" eyes. I'd think that you'd agree that the word "overwhelmed" would come to mind.

PS: Jeff, could everything that does NOT have anything to do with "Upstreams & Adjacencies" be lifted and moved to a "board etiquette" thread or soeting more pertinent. The original topic is lost in the noise level now...

Going back to the newbie/expert thing, can I point out (without ticking you off yet again) that you got quite a bit of feedback over in the newsgroups, but none here?

The folks that would have a clue as to the subject matter you're asking for help with would also normally be quite capable of running an NNTP client, probably already do, and trying to handle things like your query via this type of interface is way out of the norm ... Note how few of the newsgroup "regulars" that you've already come to know have gravitated over here ... and that's just a small sample

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The original NG post was clearly (to me) by a newbie, the way it was phrased and thought out, so I thought the topic was appropriate in both places. 

If we agree that the OP was a newbie, then why you would expect the OP to even begin to understand the data that even you were so unsure about? Take a look at that original post of yours, turn back time just a bit, and look at it with "newbie" eyes. I'd think that you'd agree that the word "overwhelmed" would come to mind.

Wazoo, we seem to be moving past the piddling contest phase, so I will go cautiously. I am ONLY going to respond to one minimal part of this and just choose to ignore the critique elements.

If you go back and read the response from the newbie, he was thrilled with all the feedback he got, yours and mine. He had no apparent problem with what I fed him and was not seem overwhelmed by it either. We really don't need to debate it here or in the NG, REGARDLESS!

Please, you seem to be very concerned about how, why and where I contribute. I really think this sort of discussion belongs OFF the Forums AND the NG.

I have been part of Usenet communities for a VERY long time. This type of discussion belongs, by every standard of netiquette I am aware of, in email form. Airing laundry this way does not strike me as making you or I look very good, much less "advanced". You have my email from the newsgroup, if not I authorize Jeff to give it to you unmunged.

I don't have time for flame wars, far too much else going on in my life. Please help in lowering the noisefloor here (remember, we are trying to make it helpful for newbies, as well as setting good examples) and take ALL of this type of discussion, feedback, critique and suggestions, off of the Forums and the NG.

Most of the above would be quite welcome from you (surprise) if handled better and done by email. Is there ANY credible reason NOT to observe this type of Netiquette? I think it is apparent that I am trying harder. Please choose to do so yourself.

Thanks in advance,

David

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Well, I'm a bit lost .. you ask questions, I offer answers, and you still seem to work hard to take things as a personal attack. I don't get it.

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The original NG post was clearly (to me) by a newbie, the way it was phrased and thought out, so I thought the topic was appropriate in both places. 

If we agree that the OP was a newbie, then why you would expect the OP to even begin to understand the data that even you were so unsure about? Take a look at that original post of yours, turn back time just a bit, and look at it with "newbie" eyes. I'd think that you'd agree that the word "overwhelmed" would come to mind.

Wazoo, we seem to be moving past the piddling contest phase, so I will go cautiously. I am ONLY going to respond to one minimal part of this and just choose to ignore the critique elements.

If you go back and read the response from the newbie, he was thrilled with all the feedback he got, yours and mine. He had no apparent problem with what I fed him and was not seem overwhelmed by it either. We really don't need to debate it here or in the NG, REGARDLESS!

Please, you seem to be very concerned about how, why and where I contribute. I really think this sort of discussion belongs OFF the Forums AND the NG.

I have been part of Usenet communities for a VERY long time. This type of discussion belongs, by every standard of netiquette I am aware of, in email form. Airing laundry this way does not strike me as making you or I look very good, much less "advanced". You have my email from the newsgroup, if not I authorize Jeff to give it to you unmunged.

I don't have time for flame wars, far too much else going on in my life. Please help in lowering the noisefloor here (remember, we are trying to make it helpful for newbies, as well as setting good examples) and take ALL of this type of discussion, feedback, critique and suggestions, off of the Forums and the NG.

Most of the above would be quite welcome from you (surprise) if handled better and done by email. Is there ANY credible reason NOT to observe this type of Netiquette? I think it is apparent that I am trying harder. Please choose to do so yourself.

Thanks in advance,

David

If you go back and read the response from the newbie, he was thrilled with all the feedback he got, yours and mine. He had no apparent problem with what I fed him and was not seem overwhelmed by it either. We really don't need to debate it here or in the NG, REGARDLESS!

Since I started this discussion about what is appropriate for newbies, let me clarify that I am talking about *very new* people to spamcop reporting. People who have never used a newsgroup nor possibly a forum. People who just have gotten one porn spam too many and want to *do* something. People who have no idea what a header is or what the difference is between forwarding by attachment and forwarding. People who have no idea what mung means. People who are expecting to find a "help desk" atmosphere.

I was such a newbie and, in some ways, I welcome the web forum because it took me several tries to get answers via the newsgroup. I was very much intimidated by any technical discussion and despaired of ever finding a "simple" answer in language that I could understand and frustrated by opening post after post to find the answer - feeling dumber by the minute.

Since some people seem to prefer the web forum to discuss issues (though it seemed to me the consensus was that newsgroup format was much better for a good discussion and there haven't been very many long discussions on the web forum yet), I have no problem with such discussions taking place on the web forum - just *not* in the spamcop reporting help section. In the newsgroup spamcop.help, people did try to keep it simple and to move discussions to .geeks, spamcop main group, .social as they also tried to be polite.

Miss Betsy

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<snip>

In the newsgroup spamcop.help, people did try to keep it simple and to move discussions to .geeks, spamcop main group, .social as they also tried to be polite.

...You found the help ng to be polite? I'm finding the answers over here to be, on the whole, both more understanding of "newbies" and less "techie."

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I can't find the post that I was trying to answer, but I, personally, do not find the posters in the ng to be unhelpful or impolite, though sometimes the discussions go way over my head. But I know many people did. IMHO, the people who are answering the posts here are trying extra hard to be less "techie" as did some posters in the ng.

I don't have a problem with the web forum as the major place for help for newbies. And I am glad that the people who are answering questions are not using a ng "style" (though I like the ng style)

What I was trying to point out is that experience made it necessary to separate spamcop.help from general/advanced discussion in the spamcop ng. If I had come to the forum and opened the post that began this thread, I might very well have closed my browser and thought there is no way that I can understand how to do this.

That's also why I would like to see a separate forum for "why am I blocked" because if the questioner is sincere, it can really get technical fast.

There may be an argument (though I haven't seen one yet), that since the spamcop ng's exist for .geeks and spamcop discussions, then there is no need for a general discussion forum. In fact, there have been comments that people prefer the web forum either because they can't access the ng or because they like the HTML. It is certainly more convenient than the mailing list.

IMHO, it is probably like people who drive Fords and those who drive GM cars. Some are die hard either way; some have a preference; and others don't really care as long as it gets them there.

My point, however, is that there were certain things learned about how to help newcomers in the ng's. One of them was to keep the noise down. The others were to be patient, polite. There were certain boilerplates (now pinned FAQ). Everything has been transferred to the web forum except keeping the help forum to be just for help questions.

Miss Betsy

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It appears that a Forum for discussion of spam and spam fighting (like the spamcop newsgroup) would be helpful for this.

Certainly, more rules and policies would be helpful

I didn't have a chance to thank you for your prompt reply.

You're welcome.

Do the above quotes mean that these things are under discussion?  Or that you are being "help desky"?
Those were both suggestions to TPTB. In other words, you're right, here's my summary of what I'm hearing you want combined with what I want but can't make happen.

And, FTR, I am not in favor of any rules except to be polite and patient and not flippant with newcomer help questions and to move topics to the proper forum to reduce "noise".  Like the internet, the way to stop "flame wars" and "trolls" is for participants to killfile them (or since that is one of things I have never bothered to find out how to do, just ignore).  Except for the help group(s - if there is one for reporting and for why am I blocked) - there the moderator should stop it immediately.  JAT - there could be a "flame" forum - sometimes they are really fun to read!
There are plenty of flames on the real Usenet. :)

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<scratching his spinning head>

Ok, I am thoroughly confused! NO-ONE made any clear announcement on the NG side that the forums were newbie-focused that I saw or heard of! Did I miss a whole discussion ? If so, EXCUUUSE me.

The Forums are helping to better serve the extreme newbie population that can't figure out how to work a newsreader, plus the general population that is prohibited from using the news port (TCP port 119) by draconian firewall admins. IIRC, the discussion was in one of the last threads started by JT in spamcop.help.

The only reason I brought this over here was Jeff G's remark to ME that JT was mostly monitoring here if I wanted to get his attention. So that was what I did. Shoot me for following directions! Yep, maybe we need an "expert questions" forum if THIS one is to remain newbie friendly.
I don't think that would fly.

The original NG post was clearly (to me) by a newbie, the way it was phrased and thought out, so I thought the topic was appropriate in both places.

As far as behavior on here and the NG: I have NO problem following the suggestions Jeff made.

I think we could ALL behave a little more adult. We need to be setting the tone for newbies, NOT operating at the lowest possible denominator. If someone feels a compelling need to killfile or ignore me, that is THEIR problem. I intend to be part of the solution...

"Can't we all just get along ?"

8-)>

(yes, I actually DO wear glasses and have a goatee. LOL)

Your posting the Topic here was not bad per se, but the SpamCop Lounge Forum might have been a better choice.

PS: Jeff, could everything that does NOT have anything to do with "Upstreams & Adjacencies" be lifted and moved to a "board etiquette" thread or soeting more pertinent. The original topic is lost in the noise level now...
I will be working on splitting this Topic shortly. Edited by JeffG

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