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Gmail's server blocked

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... IP addresses don't reveal much about most people since many IP addresses (like gmail) have hundreds of email addresses. ...

42394[/snapback]

But then if Gmail revealed the IP address of the web-client used to access their web server by the user it would not be shared by hundreds of email addresses, but would be an IP address allocated to exactly one person working on one machine, and if that person happened to work on that one machine in a country that doesn't value free speech or human rights, thae person can be easily located and sent to jail (or elsewhere).

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And since Gmail has a strict policy not to reveal their user's identities (which is from my point of view correct), they are bound by their own policy and can't really do anything to prevent being reported as spammers.

42393[/snapback]

This is actually their biggest problem. It is not their user's identities they need to reveal, but the IP address where they receive the messages from. Because of GMail's policy, Spamcop is forced to list the GMail server which appears as the injection point of the spam.

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This is actually their biggest problem. ...

42398[/snapback]

Not really. Their biggest problem (related to this SC listing issue) is stopping spam sent from their servers. FastMail.FM had a similar problem with SpamCop listing and now the problem is practically non-existent, without listing the IP addresses of http clients. The real solution is comprised of monitoring many aspects of the system and catching the spammers when they try to send (and includes things like scanning outgoing mail for spam, monitoring outgoing rates, bounce rates, and more), and then acting fast (disabling spammers accounts as fast as possible).

The best way to fight spammers is to get rid of them when they're "young" ("Children, watch out for the baobabs!"

from The Little Prince by Antoine de Saint Exupéry).

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<snip>

So it's not so easy to get SpamCop to generate false listings, but actually it's probably possible to forge email headers in a way that fools SpamCop into accepting false reports. So it's actually an interesting question: what mechanisms does SpamCop has to detect and avoid false reports?

<snip>

42395[/snapback]

...SpamCop is not proactive in that regard. However, see SpamCop Forum FAQ entry "I have been falsely and/or maliciously accused of spamming, what can I do?".

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Hi,

I am not the hostmaster/postmaster/administrator of google mail or anything but I think it is totaly outragous that you have blocked any emails from Google Mail. What are you going to do next block all of the free email providers? You are blocking millions of emails that are none spam from reaching their destination. I hope you do something to sort this!

Tom

Moderator Edit: Merged this "new" posting into the existing discussion about Gmail servers.

PM sent to advise of the move.

Edited by Wazoo

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I am not the hostmaster/postmaster/administrator of google mail or anything but I think it is totaly outragous that you have blocked any emails from Google Mail. What are you going to do next block all of the free email providers? You are blocking millions of emails that are none spam from reaching their destination. I hope you do something to sort this!

It never ceqases to amaze me how people like you manage to miss all the 'read this first', and pointers to FAQs.

IF SpamCop were blocking anything, I would agree with you. Two minute's reading of the FAQ would have reassured you that SpamCop DOES NOT, CAN NOT, NEVER HAS and NEVER WILL block(ed) a single email from anyone.

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millions of emails that are none spam

That is not true, otherwise they would not be listed. There is spam coming from those IP's in a high enough percentage to be a problem for the internet. True there are millions of messages that are not spam but percentage is the most fair way of handling this type of situation. If it were a flat 10 spams and you are listed, I would agree with you, that would be unfair to the larger ISP's.

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The purpose of a spam filter is to help filter out unwanted email from reaching it's targets. This should be accomplished effectively with 0 false positives. This means without interfering with legitimate emails.

SpamCop kills ants with a sledgehammer. While doing this they are destroying the internet freedoms. Therefore the SPAMMERS WIN, WE LOSE.

I have personally requested my ISP to stop using SpamCop on my accounts, I encourage all those users that have lost emails to do the same. This is the only way to stop the madness.

Since I am an IT professional, I will promise never to allow SpamCop to be used in our enviorment until they stop blocking entire serves for emails of a few users. This just doesn't make sense.

Who do you think you are? And what kind of idiot uses this product?

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The purpose of a spam filter is to help filter out unwanted email from reaching it's targets

And just what "spam filter" might you be talking about? This discussion is about a BL .....

Since I am an IT professional, I will promise never to allow SpamCop to be used in our enviorment until they stop blocking entire serves for emails of a few users. This just doesn't make sense.

And as an IT professional, you have the "real" answer as to how to stop the 1% of abusers by identifying and impacting their specific computer ... especially in this case where the "trail" stops at the Gmail server providing the spew ...??? Damn, just where have you been hiding all these years and why have you kept this bit of magic secret for so long?

they are destroying the internet freedoms

and here we go again .... you have the freedom to send your e-mail ... the receiving ISP has the freedom to not accept it .... just what is your definition of "freedom" ..????

Who do you think you are?

Too funny ... A link in the SpamCop FAQ (yet again, still linked to at the top of this very screen) just happens to have an entry titled; Who appointed you the "cop" of the internet? Where do you get off?

And what kind of idiot uses this product?

Gosh, just looking at the size of this Discussion alone, it looks like a whole bunch of them ..... Many posts in other discussions talk aboiut the (bandwidth and Admin) costs saved when the spam spew is so drastically reduced ... but then, you're an IT professional, you already knew this stuff ....

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... And what kind of idiot uses this product?

Two kinds:
  • The kind that doesn't read the faq, and just blocks any listed IP (e.g. your recipient's email host).
  • The kind that reads the faq and feeds the listed/unlisted info into a filter that gives it appropriate weight (e.g. my email host, using Spamassassin).

If your email was blocked and whoever blocked it claims it was blocked because it was listed on SpamCop BL then the cause of the blocking is at list one of two: whoever implemented the blocking either haven't read SpamCop's recommendations before using the BL, or chose to ignore it, and your provider received (or chose not to receive) complaints about spam going out of the IP address you used and haven't done enough to prevent these complaints. The combination of these two causes your email to be bounced. If one of these causes is avoided your mail would get through.

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Umm... You've blocked one of the GOOGLE GMAIL servers, and when I registered for these forums, your registration confirmation email was moved directly into my GMAIL spam folder...

What's going on between you two? Are you having some sort of tissy-spat?

Either way, whoever the **** is that decided one of the GMAIL servers should be blocklisted, should themselves be canned. This is getting ridiculous people...

http://www.spamcop.net/bl.shtml?66.249.92.169

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Umm... You've blocked one of the GOOGLE GMAIL servers, and when I registered for these forums, your registration confirmation email was moved directly into my GMAIL spam folder...

What's going on between you two? Are you having some sort of tissy-spat?

Either way, whoever the **** is that decided one of the GMAIL servers should be blocklisted, should themselves be canned. This is getting ridiculous people...

http://www.spamcop.net/bl.shtml?66.249.92.169

Spamcop doe not block anything. Spammers have spoiled it for everyone. Did ya look at the link you posted? It deserves to be blocked. Your problem is with Google. Take it up with them.

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Either way, whoever the **** is that decided one of the GMAIL servers should be blocklisted, should themselves be canned.

<snip>

...Well, that's your opinion and you certainly have a right to it. OTOH, there are e-mail server admins out there who use the SpamCop Blacklist in a blocking fashion (against SpamCop's recommendation) and that's their view and it's their server, their rules.

...You may also be interested in the thread "Gmail's server blocked."

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Umm... You've blocked one of the GOOGLE GMAIL servers, and when I registered for these forums, your registration confirmation email was moved directly into my GMAIL spam folder...

From the top, "I" didn't block anything. SpamCop.net didn't block anything.

What's going on between you two? Are you having some sort of tissy-spat?

Your "new" Topic/post has now been merged into en existing Topic/discussion that covers much ground. Please take the time to at least 'glance' at all that has transpired before you noticed something going on ...

Either way, whoever the **** is that decided one of the GMAIL servers should be blocklisted, should themselves be canned. This is getting ridiculous people...

Your actual issue would be with the recipient ISP that has apparently chosen to use the SpamCopDNSBL in a blocking fashion .. and GMail folks that allow the situation to continue .....

A bit of research would have found that there are currently over a dozen GMail output servers currently on the SpamCopDNSBL ..... the SpamCop FAQ here has an entry that points to "What is on the list?" if you'd care to actually spend the time to get to the issues involved.

PM sent to advise of the Move/Merge of the "new" Topic/Post ....

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Hi, I have recently been getting reports of my mail server bouncing gmails. I set up a test gmail account and it bounces those too!

I have read a great deal about this unfortunate state of affairs and as it stands I believe you spamcop chaps a re "sure" you are doing it all right and Google are not budging on their not releasing IP of originator. So.

I asked my Webhost, SiteGround for some help as Google and some of you here suggest to do. Siteground have been FAR from helpful. After a fair few emails pinging back and forth, some with amazing claims, they have accepted that the gmails are being returned because they use Spamcops filters alone. I have asked them to either add a whitelist of the google servers or move me to a server without spamcop BL. They have refused both, saying it is against their policy to add whitelist. Do you think this is an acceptable answer, do I just have to accept it?

I have searched to no avail, I wonder if you can help. A number of you make the point that Spamcop should not be used alone and even alongside spamassassin. What would they need to do? Is it a lot of work? Sorry if this is in a FAQ, you guys have the largest FAQ I have seen but I could not find this info. Do you have any suggestions on what to say to SiteGround that will help. It's a shame cos they are good in most toher respects.

p.s. I have spamassassin available on my SiteGround account. It's a virtual server and my account has a Cpanel that allows me to set up Spamassassin. All my tests with SA work very well and limit the spam I do get but I dont think it will help with these gmail returns becasue these are server wide before my account gets a look, does that sound right?

Thanks for any help :)

Edited by soop

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Hi, I have recently been getting reports of my mail server bouncing gmails.

... They have refused both, saying it is against their policy to add whitelist. Do you think this is an acceptable answer, do I just have to accept it?

... It's a shame cos they are good in most toher respects.

An email provider should not block a user's incoming email without letting the user opt-out or adjust the settings (well, there are exceptions. Very conservative BLs such as those listing known open relays/proxies can be used, as they block almost no legitimate email, and not blocking them exposes an email system to possible denial of service attacks. SpamCop is not such a BL. IP addresses listed on SpamCop often send much more legitimate mail then spam, so it's senseless to block them. But it's a very good indicator that some other spam tests should be applied).

If they would not let you receive all your email and you really need to receive your email then you should probably host your email elsewhere. If they are good webhosts you might want to keep them as webhosts and host your email separately. Webhosts are professional webhosts, and not necessarily very professional mail hosts. SiteGround's response certainly shows they are not very competent as email providers. It is possible to host email for a domain and website for a domain at different hosts (actually you can also host different subdomains at different hosts, independently for web and for email). What's possible is only limited by your host. If your webhost insists on hosting your email and your DNS then you have no choice (except changing webhost). I they don't insist on hosting your DNS than you can host your DNS elsewhere (e.g., at Zoneedit.com) and point your MX (mail server) record to any mail provider. If they insist on hosting your DNS they might allow pointing the MX record elsewhere. There are other considerations: e.g., they might not insist on hosting DNS for you but still be running chacks to verify that you point your MX record at their mail servers. EmailDiscussions.com has lots of threads discussing different comfigurations of using separate web/mail/dns hosts (and also multiple mailhosts for redundancy and all sorts of strange comfigurations...)

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I have read a great deal about this unfortunate state of affairs and as it stands I believe you spamcop chaps a re "sure" you are doing it all right and Google are not budging on their not releasing IP of originator. So.

You have already gotten an answer - which is basically that you need to use another email service. It is too bad that the people who use gmail are not the ones who have to go through that hassle and then perhaps Google would stop sending spam to the world.

Since I don't use gmail, I haven't paid very close attention to this topic. However, it is only the *sender* who can control whether spam is sent or not. The 'receiver' should not have to be constantly trying to find ways to block spam. If gmail users were not whitelisted and complained to Google about not being able to send email, perhaps Google would take steps to prevent spam from leaving their servers. If there were a glitch, then the spam could be blocked without blocking legitimate users, until Google fixed it (after receiving the spamcop report).

However, many mail admins use the spamcop bl in conjunction with other spam filters to avoid hassles with irate customers who only want to get their email and don't want to know how to be responsible netizens themselves. (not counting you among those customers - you obviously are researching and thinking it through - but the replies you are getting are a 'defense' against those who are unreasonable. Not a good one, I agree.)

Good Luck

Miss Betsy

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Thanks for your replies!

It gets a little weird now. After some complaints I seem to be talking with a helpfull chappy at Siteground. I have found a little more info. I can receive emails from many gmail accounts at my pop email account. I cannot receive ANY from the new gmail account I have setup 3 days ago! I get returns balming a spamcop blacklist of multiple google servers.

If my host are responsible for these returns, how can I prove that? Do they have a log of mails received and if they have been returned? What is that log called so I can ask them to check it.

Are there any other checks they can do to remove them from the blame? They are swearing that they are not blocking gmails.

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<snip>

If my host are responsible for these returns, how can I prove that?

<snip>

...Wouldn't the Internet Header "Received: from" lines tell you? Of course, if GMail does not have a way of letting you view those Internet Headers, my suggestion won't help.

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It is too bad that the people who use gmail are not the ones who have to go through that hassle and then perhaps Google would stop sending spam to the world.

Spammers are nearly as bad as terrorists in my mind! Why? Because a terrorists goal is to strike fear in the hearts of men and women to the point where they will no longer enjoy the carefree enjoyment of life as God designed.

But you know what.... I could deal with spammers. I can deal with spam! That's why I have filters that can delete junk. Heck, I can even require people to have to register to send me email....

Thera are a ton of things that I CAN DO... to avoid spam in my inbox!

However, what I can not deal with is services like SpamCop that BLACKLIST one of the worlds largest and fastest growing email provider in the WORLD!

I feel as though I have personally been viloted by spamcop.net. For goodness sakes... BRING ON THE spam!

I have read "We don't BLOCK" messages..... NO... I don't care what you call it! YOU HAVE BLACKLISTED GMAIL's mail servers and now I have lost two days of prodcutive work and in essence, I now fear the reprocussions of the tons of emails I sent out over the past two days that I am just being notified that are DELAYED because of YOUR STINKING SERVICE!

I contacted my email adminstrator...... they are clueless and believe Google needs to fix it...

I've seen written several times that you tell your customers who use your service to not use your blacklist as their first line of defense... Well I think you are a lousy company for not finding a way to enforce it.. It's obvious that Hundreds of email admins, possibly thousands, are using your advice to blacklist gmail!

I now HAVE TO CHANGE MY EMAIL SERVICE!!!!

But not because of Spammers.... But because of something more alarming than the terroristic spammers.... No... It's the Spamcop dot net..... that is FORCING it's strong arm on me!!!!!

I AM VERY ANGRY>>>>>

Call it my "opinion" if you wish..... Tell me off if you wish... Explain this email me away with your jargin..... if you wish..

When it is all said and done... I can no longer trust GMAIL to send messages because of your service....

I pray to God that you will not blacklist the next email provider I choose to use.....

If one day I get to speak to hundreds and thousands of people.... I will never miss my chance to speak of the worst tech company in the world that really did DRIVE A KNIFE in the back of its own customers!!!!!!

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Well it seems now that after some more discussion with SiteGround, they were indeed blocking gmail via the spamcop RBL and they say that altough the wewre whitelisting the gmail addresses they were not taking googlemail addresses into account! So after first saying that NONE are being returned they now say only some were :)

Not sure what to believe actually but now the gmails are getting thru. I hope it was a simple case of the lower skilled techs guessed at the answers at first!

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<snip>

However, what I can not deal with is services like SpamCop that BLACKLIST one of the worlds largest and fastest growing email provider in the WORLD!

<snip>

...Thank you for your rant. Of course, we've seen it before. As another SpamCop user has written in reply to the others: "Some people know so little and they know it so fluently."

...Have a nice day! :) <g>

Well it seems now that after some more discussion with SiteGround, they were indeed blocking gmail via the spamcop RBL and they say that altough the wewre whitelisting the gmail addresses they were not taking googlemail addresses into account! So after first saying that NONE are being returned they now say only some were :)

Not sure what to believe actually but now the gmails are getting thru. I hope it was a simple case of the lower skilled techs guessed at the answers at first!

...Glad you were persistent! Thanks for taking the time to come back here to let us know that your problem was resolved.

...Don't you just hate it when a customer service rep or support person doesn't know what s/he is talking about but insists that what s/he says is correct? :) <g>

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Your spam blocking service is fu**ing annoying. Please do not mass block entire email servers, as it wastes my time by not submitting emails to my friends. My email provider, gmail.com is a good service with many legitimate users, and you are wasting our time by failing to route our emails properly. I hate spam, but this service is annoying because it causes me to be spammed by my server saying that my message failed to be submitted, and prevents me from conversing with my friends. Please change your policies, otherwise, I hope your service fails and you lose money.Thanks for wasting my time and filling my inbox with crap. :angry:

Oh and by the way... I DONT RECEIVE ANY spam. Because I do not post my email address in retarted places, if you follow non-idiot practices, YOU wont receive spam either, therefor this service is a useless piece of crap.

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Your spam blocking service is fu**ing annoying. Please do not mass block entire email servers, as it wastes my time by not submitting emails to my friends. My email provider, gmail.com is a good service with many legitimate users, and you are wasting our time by failing to route our emails properly. I hate spam, but this service is annoying because it causes me to be spammed by my server saying that my message failed to be submitted, and prevents me from conversing with my friends. Please change your policies, otherwise, I hope your service fails and you lose money.Thanks for wasting my time and filling my inbox with crap. :angry:

Oh and by the way... I DONT RECEIVE ANY spam. Because I do not post my email address in retarted places, if you follow non-idiot practices, YOU wont receive spam either, therefor this service is a useless piece of crap.

Hahahahahahahaha :lol:

too funny.

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