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I have been submitting spam to SpamCop for years but I'm afraid that I don't have the experience or the terminology to always understand what I read in the forums. Please don't come down on me if I am duplicating other requests.

As LKing can attest I have been posting in the lounge a problem that has been plaguing me for the last 2 or 3 weeks.  I'm not getting any support from Hotmail or Outlook admins either. The problem is that I receive literally hundreds of spam messages every day and Spamcop reports "No source IP Address Found", "Probably not full headers, See FAQ". I use Thunderbird to forward messages as attachments. Because of this I provide Spamcop with the entire message.

I would like to request a feature that I can turn on or off that would allow Spamcop to NOT send me a link that reports the no IP address condition. Below I provide examples of my problem.

https://www.spamcop.net/sc?id=z6600151198z37eab1d8d676ae74bc0275d270b9c72az

https://www.spamcop.net/sc?id=z6600151200z386f959d2ff11ff3fb10c11c0f8d6233z

https://www.spamcop.net/sc?id=z6600151201z0c8ee99f58cc4eb4d0335674c468e352z

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23 minutes ago, Dracosse said:

I have been posting in the lounge a problem that has been plaguing me for the last 2 or 3 weeks.

http://forum.spamcop.net/topic/42877-no-headers/?tab=comments#comment-149703

Link to other thread included for reference.

Suggestion:  Not sure this would save time, but before submitting a spam the header could be inspected for "Received:" lines (<ctrl> U) and not report those similar to those reflected in the examples above.

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On 12/12/2019 at 10:30 AM, Dracosse said:

I have been submitting spam to SpamCop for years but I'm afraid that I don't have the experience or the terminology to always understand what I read in the forums. Please don't come down on me if I am duplicating other requests.

As LKing can attest I have been posting in the lounge a problem that has been plaguing me for the last 2 or 3 weeks.  I'm not getting any support from Hotmail or Outlook admins either. The problem is that I receive literally hundreds of spam messages every day and Spamcop reports "No source IP Address Found", "Probably not full headers, See FAQ". I use Thunderbird to forward messages as attachments. Because of this I provide Spamcop with the entire message.

I would like to request a feature that I can turn on or off that would allow Spamcop to NOT send me a link that reports the no IP address condition. Below I provide examples of my problem.

https://www.spamcop.net/sc?id=z6600151198z37eab1d8d676ae74bc0275d270b9c72az

https://www.spamcop.net/sc?id=z6600151200z386f959d2ff11ff3fb10c11c0f8d6233z

https://www.spamcop.net/sc?id=z6600151201z0c8ee99f58cc4eb4d0335674c468e352z

from the other thread, I understand that you submit the spam as attachment using thunderbird.

from the reporting URLs I can see that although the headers are there, the Received: headers are missing.

this is somewhat "unconventional", since every email that arrives in a mailbox gets those Received: headers added to it.

I need to ask, do you remove them from the spam/junk folder? (I saw that in the other thread there is the option to "Move to "junk" again")

is it possible that thunderbird removes the Received: headers when the messages are removed from the junk folder (or flagged as "not spam")?

 

Maybe there is some pattern there.

if you look at the headers directly in hotmail or outlook, are the Received: headers there or are they missing?

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8 hours ago, RobiBue said:

from the other thread, I understand that you submit the spam as attachment using thunderbird.

Yes

from the reporting URLs I can see that although the headers are there, the Received: headers are missing.

True, that's the problem. Spamcop can't process the messages.

this is somewhat "unconventional", since every email that arrives in a mailbox gets those Received: headers added to it.

I wish I had an answer.

I need to ask, do you remove them from the spam/junk folder? (I saw that in the other thread there is the option to "Move to "junk" again")

Many years ago I complained to the IT Admin at my place of work about all the spam I was receiving. ---Long story greatly shortened--- he showed me how to create email addresses that are

specifically designed to harvest spam, how to add those email addresses to the spammers list of addresses and how to use Spamcop to report those spam messages that I receive.

Some of my spam dedicated addresses are more fruitful than others and these days I only use Hotmail, Outlook and Comcast email because I no longer have access to my old

corporate account. A few accounts only receive 2 or 3 messages an hour. On those accounts I use the "Move to Junk Again" feature to transfer the few messages into a Junk folder of a

different email account. This makes it simpler for me to report multiple messages [12-13] at a time to Spamcop.

Please note: Up until 3 weeks ago reporting spam in this way had been completely reliable.

is it possible that thunderbird removes the Received: headers when the messages are removed from the junk folder (or flagged as "not spam")?

No. Thunderbird does not remove any information from the headers. 

Maybe there is some pattern there.

if you look at the headers directly in hotmail or outlook, are the Received: headers there or are they missing?

I don't normally do this. In fact I do not believe that I have every done this. Your question prompted me to open Outlook .com and check the headers of several junk messages.

Please view the attached file for header info extracted directly from a web page with Outlook.com rather than Thunderbird. I hope that when you attempt to submit those

headers you get the same result I did.

Sorry for the length of this reply.

headers.txt

Edited by Dracosse

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10 hours ago, Dracosse said:

Many years ago I complained to the IT Admin at my place of work about all the spam I was receiving. ---Long story greatly shortened--- he showed me how to create email addresses that are specifically designed to harvest spam, how to add those email addresses to the spammers list of addresses and how to use Spamcop to report those spam messages that I receive. Some of my spam dedicated addresses are more fruitful than others and these days I only use Hotmail, Outlook and Comcast email because I no longer have access to my old corporate account. A few accounts only receive 2 or 3 messages an hour.
On those accounts I use the "Move to Junk Again" feature to transfer the few messages into a Junk folder of a different email account.
This makes it simpler for me to report multiple messages [12-13] at a time to Spamcop.

Quote

create email addresses that are specifically designed to harvest spam

in a way also known as "honeypots", but those should be redirected directly to a spamcop honeypot account (not sure if they still have them) and you wouldn't have to to anything but let it roll... at least that was my understanding back then.

(honeypots are also email addresses that are hidden in a website, and no real person would ever see them while browsing/visiting unless they look at the raw html page. webcrawlers used by spammers usually pick them up and add them to their database.)

sorry, the  text file is not accessible, but that's ok. if it doesn't contain received headers, then it's not good anyway.

maybe someone else has an idea why received headers are missing in an email message that relies on received headers to operate correctly for handoffs and tracking history.

MTAs are supposed to add those received lines upon receipt of the email in their system.

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10 hours ago, RobiBue said:

sorry, the  text file is not accessible, but that's ok. if it doesn't contain received headers, then it's not good anyway.

Received: from MW2NAM10HT146.eop-nam10.prod.protection.outlook.com

(2603:10b6:3:103::20) by DM6PR02MB4716.namprd02.prod.outlook.com with HTTPS

via DM5PR12CA0058.NAMPRD12.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM; Sat, 14 Dec 2019 14:58:35 +0000

Received: from MW2NAM10FT005.eop-nam10.prod.protection.outlook.com

(10.13.154.60) by MW2NAM10HT146.eop-nam10.prod.protection.outlook.com

(10.13.155.94) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2,

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2019 14:58:35 +0000

Authentication-Results: spf=pass (sender IP is 209.85.210.195)

smtp.mailfrom=7e0gqtm6uu.info; hotmail.com; dkim=pass (signature was

verified) header.d=7e0gqtm6uu.info;hotmail.com; dmarc=bestguesspass

action=none header.from=7e0gqtm6uu.info;

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designates 209.85.210.195 as permitted sender)

receiver=protection.outlook.com; client-ip=209.85.210.195;

helo=mail-pf1-f195.google.com;

Received: from mail-pf1-f195.google.com (209.85.210.195) by

MW2NAM10FT005.mail.protection.outlook.com (10.13.154.75) with Microsoft SMTP

Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id

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for <xxx000xxx@hotmail.com>; Sat, 14 Dec 2019 06:58:35 -0800 (PST)

DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;

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Sat, 14 Dec 2019 06:58:34 -0800 (PST)

Return-Path: r5bi99@7e0gqtm6uu.info

Received: from instance-1 (230.73.235.35.bc.googleusercontent.com. [35.235.73.230])

by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id k15sm15934215pfg.37.2019.12.14.06.58.33

for <dale_francisco_101798@hotmail.com>

(version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128);

Sat, 14 Dec 2019 06:58:33 -0800 (PST)

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1 hour ago, Dracosse said:

<spam email removed>

ok, with a bit of line removing and space inserting due to format-/copy-/pasting, I created three reports (although I cancelled them since they are not mine 😉 )

First report with all headers: https://www.spamcop.net/sc?id=z6600908248z14fbf5e205d3bbcd06daf68b834afaa8z

This one places hotmail.com in the offending party (but that's because of misconfigured servers on their side.)

Second report (removing the misconfigured server received line (that's the topmost received line)): https://www.spamcop.net/sc?id=z6600909520z2c8b6de1573c6d56a4a1eda8247ebffez

This one puts Google now on the hot plate.

The third one I had removed both outlook server received headers (both the topmost received lines): https://www.spamcop.net/sc?id=z6600908461z0b3a82e2691b331270100d71daed223cz

as is clear, this one also places google in the hot seat.

Somehow when you forward/attach them, (I don't know how) all the received lines vanish in your reported spam. when you copy it like you did above, all headers are there (although they need to be cleaned up to the correct format.)

Dracosse, something must have changed this last 3-4 weeks since you've been having trouble reporting.

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1 hour ago, RobiBue said:

something must have changed this last 3-4 weeks since you've been having trouble reporting.

Hotmail, gmail, outlook have been known to make changes, without notice or acknowledgement. Not sure why others have not reported similar issues.

Good research @RobiBue

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7 hours ago, Lking said:

Hotmail, gmail, outlook have been known to make changes, without notice or acknowledgement. Not sure why others have not reported similar issues.

Good research @RobiBue

Thanks 🙂

Hotmail and Outlook are MS, so they would be affected the same way ;) although losing the Received: headers wouldn't benefit either Google nor M$ unless they would come up with a special way to trace the emails back to the source, so I don't think that's the issue here.

Both Google and M$ have changed their Mx/mail server addresses internally or switched to a "local" IPv6 that isn't (or actually wasn't) recognized by SC. (the latter has changed to my knowledge though)

There is still something else that changed that is dropping those Return: headers for the OP.

Is Thunderbird still in development? I mean, is it possible that they changed something when emails are attached that makes them lose those header parts?

I know, I'm grasping at straws but I have no other ideas... :(

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2 hours ago, RobiBue said:

s Thunderbird still in development?

Well yes, currently version 68.x   Things would be easy enough to check <ctrl>U will display the full content and header received.  By looking at a "good" email from a known source (a friend, your bank...) would tell the story.

TB has been one of the easiest to send reports from for a really long time.

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7 hours ago, Lking said:

Well yes, currently version 68.x   Things would be easy enough to check <ctrl>U will display the full content and header received.  By looking at a "good" email from a known source (a friend, your bank...) would tell the story.

TB has been one of the easiest to send reports from for a really long time.

:thumbs-up: 😄

A long time ago, back until  2007 or so (I thought it was 2003), I used to use Outlook Express (OE) (a. it was easy, b. it was free) and I would have all my emails retrieved to my PC with it and was able to do some "nifty things" too with it. Anyway, I digress.

with the dawn of Gmail, for which I received an invite back then, I realized that I could save space on my PC and keep emails for longer and have them retrieved just like with OE and still have most of OE's functionality.

At about the same time, or just a bit earlier (can't really remember) -- I was and avid anti-spam enthusiast (posting and reading news.admin.net-abuse.email (nanae) and checking in with the "local" Lumber Cartel (using "Clue by four"s on spammers) since the late 90s ) -- I got wind of SC and started reporting spam through SC where before I used to check the headers myself and report manually to the entities responsible for the source, having occasionally had the pleasure to receive "kill" confirmations from AB (Afterburner) and Nyarla (Nyarlathotep) at Erols/RCN (there were others, but the names escape me...) aaaaaaaaanyway back to ... (where was I? oh, yeah!)  ok, so several of my email accounts I had back then were discontinued because the companies I had them with started closing up shop or just discontinued their email services and I found myself with just about 4 or so email providers left finding no need for trying out new things so with that I stayed with gmail as my main email utility and got rid of OE and as I mentioned, didn't need a replacement so I didn't know about the developments of TB (although I do use FF 😉 )

I know, the above had nothing to to with the current thread, just an anecdote that came to mind while reading Lking's reply.

I do hope though, @Dracosse's "No Headers" problem gets resolved.

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13 hours ago, RobiBue said:

I do hope though, @Dracosse's "No Headers" problem gets resolved.

Good news! I was re-reading all of the posts in both threads and one thing stuck in my mind. LKing mentioned using CTL + U to view the headers of messages a couple times. I tried it and after submitting 25 messages without an error, not one! I decided to roll back to an earlier version of Thunderbird. v38.0 to be exact and the problem completely disappeared.

Thanks everyone for taking the time to give my problem a second thought. RobiBue you and LKing are my IT heroes  for going above and beyond.

Umm, I've been getting carpal tunnel submitting so many messages in the last 2 hours. I am once again a happy spam reporter.

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I rolled back to an older version of Thunderbird [38.0] and for 2 hours I was able to report spam just like before. Then suddenly the same thing happened. Almost all messages have no tracking information.

Weird. I don't understand that?

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7 hours ago, Dracosse said:

I rolled back to an older version of Thunderbird [38.0] and for 2 hours I was able to report spam just like before. Then suddenly the same thing happened. Almost all messages have no tracking information.

Weird. I don't understand that?

Dang! something is definitely not right! it's like some scri_pt is removing those headers on purpose. (almost like malware on that computer, which I hope is not the case)

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I've scanned this PC with Malware bytes checked it with Clamwin Antivirus [always worked in the past], Windows 10 with Windows Defender and monitored the startup apps + I have used Spybot Search and Destroy for years.

When I reverted to an older version of Thunderbird. I checked to "share experience with developers" When I get up the gumption to do that again I won't check that box. Maybe the developers are doing something in proactive mode? Also next time I'll make sure to backup the contacts list 1st. (OUCH!)

P.S.S. I run Clamwin from a USB Drive by booting to that drive by doing this no virus or malware can hide itself.

I play 1 online game RIFT.

I get my other entertainment on our TV not the computer.

yea I'm depressed this morning.

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3 hours ago, Dracosse said:

get my other entertainment on our TV not the computer.

yea I'm depressed this morning.

No matter your politics, today the American TV is depressing.

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2 hours ago, Lking said:

No matter your politics, today the American TV is depressing.

There’s Netflix or Hulu to alleviate that ;) 

 

6 hours ago, Dracosse said:

I've scanned this PC with Malware bytes checked it with Clamwin Antivirus [always worked in the past], Windows 10 with Windows Defender and monitored the startup apps + I have used Spybot Search and Destroy for years.

When I reverted to an older version of Thunderbird. I checked to "share experience with developers" When I get up the gumption to do that again I won't check that box. Maybe the developers are doing something in proactive mode? Also next time I'll make sure to backup the contacts list 1st. (OUCH!)

[...]

yea I'm depressed this morning.

Believe me, I feel your pain! Mine Has to do with healthcare... (not physical pain, it’s the system, although it can give me headaches just thinking about it...)

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I've noticed something that might explain my No Ip error. Does Spamcop limit the number of messages I can submit? Is it possible that the No IP Address is a default error in this case?

I ask this because I didn't submit any messages yesterday and now today I'm not getting the error [YET].

 

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There is no limit.  I report hundreds a day.  Day before yesterday I reported over 450.

Having used Thunderbird for years and never had, or heard of, an issue with headers, I do believe the issue is the processing of your email provider.

On the other hand, No one else using the same email provider is reporting the same problem.

I don't remember, have you used <ctrl>U to look at the header of spam that fail to see if the Received: lines are there before you forward them?

The reason for looking is a "divide and conquer" troubleshooting.  "We" know the receive lines need to be in the header to arrive at your email provider from outside. If we can eliminate your system/how you report that will help localize where the problem is occurring.

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9 hours ago, Lking said:

I don't remember, have you used <ctrl>U to look at the header of spam that fail to see if the Received: lines are there before you forward them?

The reason for looking is a "divide and conquer" troubleshooting.  "We" know the receive lines need to be in the header to arrive at your email provider from outside. If we can eliminate your system/how you report that will help localize where the problem is occurring.

As Per 12-16-2019 4:25 PM above: "Good news! I was re-reading all of the posts in both threads and one thing stuck in my mind. LKing mentioned using CTL + U to view the headers of messages a couple times. I tried it and after submitting 25 messages without an error, not one! I decided to roll back to an earlier version of Thunderbird. v38.0 to be exact and the problem completely disappeared."

However the next day the problem arose again but this morning I didn't have the problem for about an hour and then the holiday season interrupted my reporting and testing opportunities.

I believe I will simply wait this problem out until after XMas.

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12 hours ago, Dracosse said:

I decided to roll back to an earlier version of Thunderbird. v38.0 to be exact and the problem completely disappeared."

However the next day the problem arose again but this morning I didn't have the problem for about an hour and then the holiday season interrupted my reporting and testing opportunities.

I wonder if your thunderbird automatically updated to a newer version between the day it worked and the day it didn't.

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1 minute ago, gnarlymarley said:

I wonder if your thunderbird automatically updated to a newer version between the day it worked and the day it didn't.

Dracosse checks version, looks down at feet, slaps forehead, and tears come to eyes. Current version 68.3.1. YUP updated to exactly the version I didn't want.

Now to figure out how to prevent automatic updates and before I downgrade again I'll make sure to back up my contacts.

Thanks gnarlymarley!

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9 hours ago, Dracosse said:

68.3.1. YUP updated

A downgrade, I try to disable these not always successfully though?
If it still works it's not broken!

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Dang! I just subscribed to this service as a Heavy User to report all the Hotmail spam I am receiving without first testing to see if this worked. I've tried all kinds of finagling of the message payload, and the different methods of sending it. I even tried to edit the Sender to match the format of the sample, and still rejected. Heck, I can't even confirm the new SpamCop Account Configuration method as I get missing header rejections, no matter how I send it. It's quite frustrating. I'm using the Hotmail/Outlook.Live web interface, as I am not running an email server.

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