Help! Being threatened with lawsuit!

[mfischer2]

I've been using spamcop for a few months now, and today I received a threatening email from a website that claims I registered for their "ezine".

Here is the email:

----------------------------------

Hello SpamCop user,

Matthew,

You reported an email we sent you last Wednesday to

spam Cop.

As you visited one of our sites and completed an "Information

Request" form, we are mystified as to why you decided to file a

spam complain when we sent you the information YOU REQUESTED!

As we have your complete contact details on file, including you IP

address, we STRONGLY suggest that you notify spam Cop of your error

as ANY disruption to our online service due to your action WILL

result in legal action.

You may view our spam policy (and how we deal with false

complaints) here: http://www.ellagicmlm.com/spam.htm

Regards,

Stan Haley.

[Jeff G.]

Please ask Stan for the "log attached showing, among other things, the subscription time and IP address that was used [to] subscribe", along with the URL where you allegedly subscribed. Please also share the Tracking URL for your Report. Thanks!

[mfischer2]

Please ask Stan for the "log attached showing, among other things, the subscription time and IP address that was used [to] subscribe", along with the URL where you allegedly subscribed.  Please also share the Tracking URL for your Report.  Thanks!

36864[/snapback]

Jeff: Here is the tracking URL for my spam report:

http://www.spamcop.net/mcgi?action=showhis...;val=1563904920

I have requested the logs from Stan.

[Jeff G.]

Jeff: Here is the tracking URL for my spam report:

http://www.spamcop.net/mcgi?action=showhis...;val=1563904920

I have requested the logs from Stan.

36865[/snapback]

Thanks, but that is not a Tracking URL, all it gets me is "Authorization failure, no username provided by server; action = showhistory" or

Report History:

Submitted: Wednesday, November 23, 2005 18:12:15 -0500:

Welcome Matthew, Here are the details you wanted.

    * 1563904923 ( http:// www.ellagicmlm.com/ ) To: abuse[at]verio.net

    * 1563904921 ( 70.182.243.157 ) To: spamcop[at]imaphost.com

    * 1563904920 ( 70.182.243.157 ) To: abuse[at]cox.net

    * 1563904919 ( 204.200.197.82 ) To: relays[at]admin.spamcop.net

without Tracking URL Links on most of the Report IDs. Please see Getting a Tracking URL from a Report ID. Thanks!

[mfischer2]

Okay, I think this is it.

http://www.spamcop.net/sc?id=z830406337za1...5c2d6111f35526z

[Jeff G.]

Yes, that was it, thanks. So prima facie Stan Haley appears not to be running mailing lists responsibly. Please ask him to see FAQ Entry: Am I Running Mailing Lists Responsibly?.

Also, taking him literally, he says "you have received this mailing because earlier this month you visited our website and asked to be advised of business opportunities." So looking at his website, I see a form with the following info:

First Name: 

Last Name: 

Phone Number: 

Best Time to Contact: 

Email Address: 

City: 

State: 

Zip: 

Do you have prior MLM experience?  Yes NO

Are you currently involved in the industry?  Yes NO

What Company? 

Comments You Wish to Make:

Please ask him for all of that info for your supposed request.

Thanks!

[agsteele]

I suspect that when you ask Stan for the information you'll find the correspondence dies.

Actually, another question... Do you munge your reports? If so, was there anything in the original message to identify you? Because if you munge and if there was no unique id, how can Stan know that you registered and, more particularly, which ip address you used?

Of course, having replied to his message he can now join the dots but maybe his first message was bluster addressed to the SC reply link - which, of course, doesn't reveal your identity if you munge.

Andrew

[Miss Betsy]

For future readers of this thread, any mention of a lawsuit in connection with anti-spam activities is commonly called a 'cartooney.'

If you have not signed up for the email you reported as spam, there is nothing that the spammer can do to you legally for reporting it. If you did sign up, then the sender will have a confirmation email from you and will contact the deputies that this report was in error. Then you can be fined or suspended from reporting. The best thing that you can do if you realize that you have reported an email in error is to make apologies to the sender and notify the deputies.

It is best if you answer a reply to use a different email address than the one the spam came to. That is because if it is a spammer, then they will simply remove your name from their mailing list (and probably sell it to another spammer). You can look up 'listwashing' in the glossary.

If you decide to reply (which IMHO is the polite thing to do and may educate a clueless emailer), you ask for the logs or confirmation that you signed up AND confirmed it. There are numerous ways, benign and malignant, that your email address could be entered at his website, but only you can confirm that you are the one interested. There is likely to be no answer. However, if there is one, you can tell them about responsible mailing practices or provide them with the link. If it is another cartooney, then you have no obligation to continue the correspondence. I would probably suggest that they contact the spamcop deputies with their evidence and copy the deputies.

Many anti-spam fighters do not even dignify a 'cartooney' with a reply.

Miss Betsy

[petzl]

I suspect that when you ask Stan for the information you'll find the correspondence dies.

Actually, another question... Do you munge your reports?  If so, was there anything in the original message to identify you?  Because if you munge and if there was no unique id, how can Stan know that you registered and, more particularly, which ip address you used?

Of course, having replied to his message he can now join the dots but maybe his first message was bluster addressed to the SC reply link - which, of course, doesn't reveal your identity if you munge.

36880[/snapback]

As you have been threatened and have the time ask for Lawyers name and make a formal complaint to "Law society"

Also look up a "No win no Pay law firm yourself" these in Australia have a near 100% success as they will not take on a case they remotely look like losing

Not that I believe a cartooney is nothing but bluff The fact is they thmselves may find threats can be costly

[Merlyn]

Ask him which site you requested it from because of the 96 sites registered on that IP belong to him and many are exactly the same junk returning the same email.

Without a closed loop "confirmed opt-in" this joker does not know who entered the request as anyone can enter anything they want. IMHO just report him to cartooney.org and forget about it. If you did not request his crap keep reporting it. Spammers love to throw cartoonies around.

Sound like he is following all the rules

here is more of his crap:

ACTIVE-IONIC.COM.

ALLICINPLUS.COM.

ALLISUREPLUS.COM.

ANTIOXIDANTS-STOP-CANCER.COM.

BECKYSNEEDLENOOK.COM.

BETA-1-3-D-GLUCAN.COM.

BIOENERGYTECHNOLOGY.ORG.

BIOSCALARENERGY.COM.

BIOSCALARENERGY.ORG.

BOTANICALMIRACLE.COM.

CANCERHELPONLINE.ORG.

CARDIOARGININE.COM.

CHINESE-WOLFBERRY.ORG.

CHINESEWOLFBERRY.NET.

CHINESEWOLFBERRY.ORG.

DRIVE-LEGALLY.COM.

DRIVELEGALLY.COM.

DYNAMICCONSUMERMARKETING.COM.

EIF4.COM.

ELLAGIC-ACID.NET.

ELLAGIC-ACID.ORG.

ELLAGIC-INSURANCE-FORMULA.COM.

ELLAGICINSURANCEFORMULA.COM.

ELLAGICMAGIC.COM.

ELLAGICMLM.COM.

ELLAGICOPPORTUNITY.COM.

ELLAGITANIN.COM.

ELLAGITANIN.NET.

ELLAGITANIN.ORG.

ELLAGITANINS.COM.

ELLAGITANINS.NET.

ELLAGITANINS.ORG.

EMPOWERMENTWATER.COM.

FIBERKLENZ.COM.

FIBERKLENZPLUS.COM.

FIGHT-CANCERS.COM.

FREE-DOWNLOADABLE-REPORTS.COM.

FREEREPORTS4U.COM.

FULVICACIDMINERALS.COM.

FULVICACIDS.COM.

FULVICACIDS.ORG.

GRAVIOLA.ORG.

GREENWOODHEALTH.COM.

GREENWOODHEALTH.NET.

GREENWOODWEALTH.COM.

GROUPVOLUME.COM.

KEYS-4-SUCCESS.COM.

KRYSTALSALTMIRACLE.COM.

LIQUIDWONDER.COM.

LIVINGGRAINS.COM.

LONGEVITYSUPERFOOD.COM.

MAGICAL-LINKS.COM.

MAGICAL-MATRIX.COM.

MEGAFIBERDIET.COM.

MLMISHISTORY.COM.

MPOWERMENTWATER.COM.

NATLONG.COM.

NATLONGBP.COM.

NATURAL-LONGEVITY.COM.

NATURALLIVINGWATER.COM.

NATURALLONGEVITY.ORG.

NEGATIVECALORIEFOODS.ORG.

NUTRAMAXX.COM.

NUTRITIONAL-HEALTH-REPORT.ORG.

NUTRITIONAL-POWER-TOOLS.COM.

NUTRITIONAL-SCIENCE-INSTITUTE.ORG.

NUTRITIONALPOWERTOOLS.COM.

ODL4.COM.

OMICA-PLUS.COM.

OPTIMUMLONGEVITY.COM.

PBF-ENZYMES.COM.

PBF-ENZYMES.NET.

PBF-ENZYMES.ORG.

PREVENTPMS.COM.

PROFESSIONALBACKGAMMON.ORG.

RIPMLM.COM.

SALVESTROLCOMPOUNDS.COM.

SALVESTROLS.COM.

SOILBASEDMIRACLE.COM.

SUBTLEENERGYRESEARCH.ORG.

SUBTLEENERGYTECHNOLOGY.COM.

SUPABOOST.COM.

SUPERANTIOXIDANTS.NET.

SUPREMELONGEVITY.COM.

THECOLLOIDALSOLUTION.COM.

THEMENUCREATOR.COM.

THENEGATIVECALORIEDIET.ORG.

TOTAL-IMMUNE-BOOSTER.COM.

TOTALIMMUNEBOOSTER.COM.

TOXICFREESOAP.COM.

ULTRABIOMINN.COM.

ULTRAVIDA.COM.

WEIGHTNORMALIZATION.COM.

WEIGHTNORMALIZATION.ORG.

WOLFBERRY.NET.

ZEROGROUPVOLUME.COM.

[mfischer2]

I suspect that when you ask Stan for the information you'll find the correspondence dies.

Actually, another question... Do you munge your reports?  If so, was there anything in the original message to identify you?  Because if you munge and if there was no unique id, how can Stan know that you registered and, more particularly, which ip address you used?

Of course, having replied to his message he can now join the dots but maybe his first message was bluster addressed to the SC reply link - which, of course, doesn't reveal your identity if you munge.

36880[/snapback]

You were correct, I never heard back from Stan. I will look into Munging my reports in the future. Thanks for your help and suggestions.

[agsteele]

You were correct, I never heard back from Stan.  I will look into Munging my reports in the future.  Thanks for your help and suggestions.

36954[/snapback]

You're welcome

Andrew

[Multiglow]

Jeff,

Had I been aware of these posts last november when this incident occured I would have posted this reply at that time.

Here are a few points for everyone who trashed me in here to consider.

1) The individual (mfischer2) who made the complaint did not munge his report and was easily identifyable.

2) We did have his information on file, including the subscription IP address.

3) Our hosting company investigated his claim, looked at the subscription information we provided them and found his claim to be totally baseless.

4) We have been with our hosting company since 1998, and have over 100 domains hosted with them.

5) They are well aware of the fact that we do not EVER spam anyone and we also hate spammers with a passion.

6) the reason thatmfischer2 never got any reply from me, is simple...he NEVER sent me ANY reply to my original warning message to him.

7) My original message to him was not "cartooney", just a simple statement of fact.

8) If I was a spammer, do you really think that I would be stupid enough to either have all of my domains listed with the correct contact details freely available and also hosted by a company (verio) that is one of the toughest on spammers?

My main company website is greenwoodhealth.com and just to show you haw we treat any of our members who send ANY spam, take a quick look at this page:

How we treat SPAMMERS

In our six years of business, we have only had to kick out 3 of our 45,000 members for spamming.

Regards,

Stan Haley.

[Merlyn]

Domain Name.......... greenwoodhealth.net

Organisation Name.... Creating Wealth

Thanks for the laugh

[Multiglow]

Domain Name.......... greenwoodhealth.net

Organisation Name.... Creating Wealth

Thanks for the laugh

Ok, now I am confused.......what was so funny with my post?

Stan.

[Merlyn]

Ok, now I am confused.......what was so funny with my post?

Just reminds me of a few things...... But surely not about you........................

Rule #1: Spammers lie.

Russel's Admonition: Always assume that there is a measurable chance that the entity you are dealing with is a spammer.

Lexical Contradiction: Spammers will redefine any term in order to disguise their abuse of Internet resources.

Sharp's Corollary: Spammers attempt to re-define "spamming" as that which they do not do.

Finnell's Corollary: Spammers define "remove" as "validate."

Rule #2: If a spammer seems to be telling the truth, see Rule #1.

Crissman's Corollary: A spammer, when caught, blames his victims.

Moore's Corollary: Spammer's lies are seldom questioned by mainstream media.

And last but not least................

Spammer's Standard of Discourse: Threats and intimidation trump facts and logic.

[Multiglow]

How about the actual reasons for my post.

1) I was made aware today that my reputation was being trashed in here and simply decided to answer what had been posted.

2) I posted what I thought was a reasonable reply to the material.

3) If I was a spammer, why the hell would I bother either taking the time to visit this forum, or to comment on an issue that was resolved in my favor last November.

Now, if that does not satisfy you........then you are the one with the problem, not me.

Stan.

PS: With over 100 websites I get sent more damm spam every day than I know what to do with.

[StevenUnderwood]

3) If I was a spammer, why the hell would I bother either taking the time to visit this forum, or to comment on an issue that was resolved in my favor last November.

I do not believe you were being labeled a spammer in the message you were replying to (today's messages). I find any organization describes itself as "creating wealth" to be like "printing money". At least that is what I found humourus.

To answer your question which I quoted, you would be surprised what spammers would do to try and show they are not. Some seem to think if they give a good enough argument here that they will be permanently whitelisted (oh, we must have been wrong) becasue they do not read how the spamcop BL works. You have done none of these types of things.

[Miss Betsy]

How about the actual reasons for my post.

1) I was made aware today that my reputation was being trashed in here and simply decided to answer what had been posted.

2) I posted what I thought was a reasonable reply to the material.

3) If I was a spammer, why the hell would I bother either taking the time to visit this forum, or to comment on an issue that was resolved in my favor last November.

Now, if that does not satisfy you........then you are the one with the problem, not me.

Stan.

PS: With over 100 websites I get sent more damm spam every day than I know what to do with.

You say that you had a subscription from the spamcop reporter. The spamcop reporter did not think that he had subscribed. As far as I can tell there never was any proof shown to the spamcop reporter (or even to spamcop itself) that there was a confirmed subscription. All people who read this thread have are statements from you and the reporter which are conflicting.

The websites (which you didn't deny are yours) sound like the kind of websites that are advertised in spam. That doesn't mean that you spam. You may not have to spam because there are enough gullible people in the world who 'wannaberich' and have found your site(s) through search engines .

IMHO, your reputation has not been trashed here by anyone. There have been comments about what spammers do and in November what a reporter can do about replies to a report - with an emphasis on how to be careful in case it is a spammer. There has been no proof one way or another that you are using a confirmed subscription list. JeffG seemed to be sure that you were not using a confirmed subscription list and he usually knows what he is talking about.

Many of the people who frequent this forum are not particularly respectful of MLM schemes, but that is surely a difference of opinion, not trashing someone's reputation.

If your reputation has suffered, it is only because of your comments - particularly the initial legal threat.

Miss Betsy

[dbiel]

2) We did have his information on file, including the subscription IP address.

5) They are well aware of the fact that we do not EVER spam anyone and we also hate spammers with a passion.

My main company website is greenwoodhealth.com and just to show you haw we treat any of our members who send ANY spam, take a quick look at this page:

In our six years of business, we have only had to kick out 3 of our 45,000 members for spamming.

Regards,

Stan Haley.

Well you may not be a spammer but I can sure see why you get reported as being one.

I logged into to web site mentioned above and registered using completely bogus information. I even accidentally miss typed my discardable email address.

Example: street address used: "This is a invalid address"

Yet you opened up the account even with a total invalid email address (I had meant to use a valid address to test your replies.)

I have since changed the email address to a valid one.

You then allow anyone logging into the new web site send email to the registered address which you have never take the time to validate. Those emails are actually sent from the SMTP server of the person actually sending the message, but you are the one providing the bogus email address to be used.

You do one thing correctly, and that is you do track the IP address used when registering and when making changes but that does not validate the identity of the user or his right to use the email address entered.

No email address you ever be added to any list without first sending a confirmation email that requires a reply and only after the reply is received should the address be added to your list.

To summarize, there are some serious problems with your web site that you need to fix.

Your failure to validate the information provided to you by unknown users makes you partially responsible for their actions generated from your web site.

Allowing anyone to register using someone elses email address IS a form of spamming.

So sorry, as I see it you are a spammer.

How about fixing your web site to stop the problem?

[Merlyn]

To summarize, there are some serious problems with your web site that you need to fix.

Your failure to validate the information provided to you by unknown users makes you partially responsible for their actions generated from your web site.

Allowing anyone to register using someone elses email address IS a form of spamming.

So sorry, as I see it you are a spammer.

How about fixing your web site to stop the problem?

So far rules #1,2,3, all that is left is #4.

http://forum.spamcop.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=930

Off to oder the popcorn!

[Multiglow]

Fair enough comments.

"Creating Wealth" is simply the name of one of my holding companies.

No, I am not at all surprised at the actions of spammers, as I deal with their junk on a daily basis.

I just get pissed when I get accused of being one.

Stan.

[Multiglow]

You say that you had a subscription from the spamcop reporter. The spamcop reporter did not think that he had subscribed.

Sorry, but he did subscribe.

As far as I can tell there never was any proof shown to the spamcop reporter (or even to spamcop itself) that there was a confirmed subscription.

He was emailed the proof.

Spamcop was NOT sent anything as to do so without the written permission of the complainant would leave us in breach of various privacy laws.

The websites (which you didn't deny are yours) sound like the kind of websites that are advertised in spam.

Sorry about that, but then you could make that argument regarding virtually any website.

You may not have to spam because there are enough gullible people in the world who 'wannaberich' and have found your site(s) through search engines .

Now we are getting to the heart of the matter. Is it your opinion that we are just another of the many scam sites that pop up every day promoting nothing usefull?

Many of the people who frequent this forum are not particularly respectful of MLM schemes, but that is surely a difference of opinion, not trashing someone's reputation.

Once again your choice of words sums up your attitude.

"MLM schemes"?

Sorry we are NOT a "SCHEME", we are a company that has used the MLM Business Model for the last 5 years and 10 months.

We are also well aware that our business model is not for everyone, but then neither is Wall Marts.

If your reputation has suffered, it is only because of your comments - particularly the initial legal threat.

We do NOT make threats, as to do so is highly illegal....on or off line.

Stan.

[Miss Betsy]

You say that you had a subscription from the spamcop reporter. The spamcop reporter did not think that he had subscribed.

Sorry, but he did subscribe.

Someone else has 'subscribed' at your site and it is evident that you are not using confirmed subscription. If you are not using confirmed subscription, then you are contributing to the spam problem just as those server admins who accept email and then 'bounce' them.

People can get 'subscribed' to your site through a typo or maliciously when they never have even heard of you.

<snip>

You may not have to spam because there are enough gullible people in the world who 'wannaberich' and have found your site(s) through search engines .

Now we are getting to the heart of the matter. Is it your opinion that we are just another of the many scam sites that pop up every day promoting nothing usefull?

Many of the people who frequent this forum are not particularly respectful of MLM schemes, but that is surely a difference of opinion, not trashing someone's reputation.

Once again your choice of words sums up your attitude.

"MLM schemes"?

Sorry we are NOT a "SCHEME", we are a company that has used the MLM Business Model for the last 5 years and 10 months.

We are also well aware that our business model is not for everyone, but then neither is Wall Marts.

And that's what I said - it is a difference of opinion, not trashing your reputation.

If your reputation has suffered, it is only because of your comments - particularly the initial legal threat.

We do NOT make threats, as to do so is highly illegal....on or off line.

Stan.

Sorry "...due to your action WILL result in legal action." sounds like a threat to me (and I might add an empty threat).

I repeat, the only way your reputation is suffering is from your own statements. In the beginning, there was merely advice on what to do in case your reply really was from a spammer - no one knowing any different at that time. The line between being irresponsible about your mailing list and being a spammer is a thin one since the result is the same - innocent people get emails they don't want.

Miss Betsy

[Multiglow]

This whole episode has absolutly nothing to do with our main (Greenwood) site.

The email that generated the original false spam complaint was promoting an entirly different site.

The fact that we choose to permit individuals to purchase our products through the Greenwood site without verifying their email address is standard business practise.

In the almost 6 years we have been in business we have had problems with less than 10 individuals regarding the email address that was given to us to be used as a contact address. Most of those problems were from a husband or wife joining and using their partners email address without their permission.

We do, however, have about 5% of our members use incorect (as in non-existent) email addresses that bounce back to us and our staff manually call those individuals to advise then of that fact.

We actually do send our Greenwood members regular updates but we do NOT just mail them those updates automatically.

We REQUIRE those members who wish to receive our updates to subscribe and then to confirm that subscription.

We also specifically tell our members that if they do not subscribe then they will never receive an update from us.

You can easily confirm this by going to the site and joining, then use your password to enter our members "backroom" and reading the Members "Update" and "Marketing" Lists section at the bottom of the page you will be taken to.

Hope this makes sense,

Stan.