Split off from What should I do ??, Attack

[Wazoo]

Note: this topic has been split off from its original source but due to the nature of the topic it does include the content of the entire original topic which is the driving force of this split topic. The content has been included as individual quotes inserted at the top of Wazoo's reply post which is actually the first post in this topic

Since I am new to this forum, welcome, and excuse me till I learn about this list. I really pis**ed off a telephone spammer, unfortunally I gave them my spam e-mail. EVERY day I get about 100 e-mails with the same message. Although spamcops filters stop it as held mail, some get through to EUDORA and if I dont check the held mail every day, after a couple of days, it gets to be 500 waiting. Course, I have to look at them all to see what is legit. What can I do?, links below if you need see some examples:

http://www.spamcop.net/reportheld?action=p...net&id=7100

http://www.spamcop.net/reportheld?action=p...net&id=7101

http://www.spamcop.net/reportheld?action=p...net&id=7109

No one here can "see" your samples. So while you are wandering around looking for the definition of Tracking URL (in the dictionary, FAQ, glossary, Wiki, etc.) you may also want to tke a look at the various FAQ entries on a few other things ... maybe your question has already been answered ..????

You did not understand the question nor the problem. You should wander over to the dictionary and look up the meaning of the phrase " a**hole response ". So much for help...........

Oh absolutely, I have no idea what you are talking about. I'm ignorant as all get-out. I suppose that's because I've never even seen a computer, much less used that new-fangled thing called e-mail. spam???? Wasn't that the off-colored atuff I ate years back in the comabt zone?

What is your actual definition of "I gave them my spam e-mail" ????

You posted into the SpamCop.net e-mail Account section, even seemingly suggesting that you had a SpamCop.net e-mail account involved .. though wondering off to Eudora .... but nothing said about whether you had checked any of the pre-existing data developed and posted by other "users" .... filters, lists, how-I-use walk-throughs .. on and on .... hell, rumours are that even Eudora has some kind of filtering mode that could be set up ...????

As you chose not to try to help yourself or help "us help you" ..... off to the Lounge with this bit of lunacy as simple rant material. The foul language didn't help either ....

What can I do?, links below if you need see some examples:

Please accept my apologies for the rude reception you received here.

The straight answer to your question is that if you report one of the spams, and take the "Tracking URL" from the top of the SpamCop reporting page, we can use it to see the spam at issue, and see how SpamCop treats it.

This is an example of a Tracking URL; possibly the spam you're talking about.

http://www.spamcop.net/sc?id=z1175973721z0...1bbf6b27f95979z

The "View entire message" link on that page will show the forum members the full headers and text.

I don't know what a "spam email" is, either.

I dont check the held mail every day, after a couple of days, it gets to be 500 waiting.

You can set your SpamCop Webmail account to automatically show you the Folder view when you log in so that you can quickly delete the contents of your Held Mail folder.

Get into your Webmail Options then Login Tasks.

- Don D'Minion - SpamCop Admin -

The following begins Wazoo's post:

Please accept my apologies for the rude reception you received here.

Huh? Your reading of the flow of things is a bit off in my opinion.

Gee, I feel left out as you didn't offer an apology for the curse words that I edited out of the user's follow-up .....

What about the other folks that drove the 'over 70 views' ...????

The straight answer to your question is that if you report one of the spams, and take the "Tracking URL" from the top of the SpamCop reporting page, we can use it to see the spam at issue, and see how SpamCop treats it.

As explained and demonstrated in at least a half-dozen places already linked to ..... Dictionary, FAQ, Glossary, Wiki, hundreds of previous posts/Topics/etc.

You can set your SpamCop Webmail account to automatically show you the Folder view when you log in so that you can quickly delete the contents of your Held Mail folder.

Get into your Webmail Options then Login Tasks.

And as mentioned in the initial response, more data found in the various FAQ entries here, there, and everywhere on how to use things, do things, handle things ....???? Lord knows what else would be stumbled across that hadn't even crossed the user's mind while reading some of the details that other users took the time to write up and post, primarily so those words wouldn't have to be repeatedly recreated over and over ....

[SpamCopAdmin]

Huh? Your reading of the flow of things is a bit off in my opinion.

You're certainly welcome to your option, but I disagree.

No one here can "see" your samples. So while you are wandering around looking for the definition of Tracking URL (in the dictionary, FAQ, glossary, Wiki, etc.) you may also want to tke a look at the various FAQ entries on a few other things ... maybe your question has already been answered ..????

That's a prime example of you pushing a user around. It's snide and absolutely no help at all.

If you're not going to answer their question, then don't post.

As explained and demonstrated in at least a half-dozen places already linked to ..... Dictionary, FAQ, Glossary, Wiki, hundreds of previous posts/Topics/etc.

That's true, and it's a truly valuable resource that has no doubt answered the questions of hundreds of users who found the help they needed without posting a question in the forums.

Lord knows what else would be stumbled across that hadn't even crossed the user's mind while reading some of the details that other users took the time to write up and post, primarily so those words wouldn't have to be repeatedly recreated over and over ....

That information is there to help people, not to give you a reason to chide, chastize and criticize them if they don't show proper respect for all the work you did.

If you're not going to answer their question, then don't post.

- Don D'Minion - SpamCop Admin -

[kamaraju]

If you're not going to answer their question, then don't post.

Can't agree more!

[Wazoo]

You're certainly welcome to your option, but I disagree.

Whatever

That's a prime example of you pushing a user around. It's snide and absolutely no help at all.

If you're not going to answer their question, then don't post.

And the question was what exactly?

How to set filters some where?

How to recognise spam versus non-spam?

How to set up mail-handling in Eudora?

spam handling in general?

Black/White-listing in the SpamCop.net e-mail application?

Actual reporting issue based on so many spams received?

Sorry, but I still don't know what the actual question was, beyond "getting too much spam" ....

That's true, and it's a truly valuable resource that has no doubt answered the questions of hundreds of users who found the help they needed without posting a question in the forums.

That information is there to help people, not to give you a reason to chide, chastize and criticize them if they don't show proper respect for all the work you did.

If you're not going to answer their question, then don't post.

Yet again, your opinion, your experience, your background.

As stated, the "question" asked wasn't very good to begin with. Time spent looking at data existing would surely have led to being able to ask a 'real' question, far beyond the mystical and open-ended "what should I do?" ....

"The work I did" is an extreme shortchanging of the work done by many.

In contrast to other 'support' forums that have questions left unanswered for months on end, this forum does get some kind of a response, usually very quickly. "Good" questions most always get a "good" answer. Stuff like this starts the guessing game of what's needed, what's missing, what was actually meant, ad infinitum ..... Due to all the data that is made available without needing to register to post, it is simply a waste of time to have to wade through all of that. There just isn't any good excuse for wasting so many other people's time like this.

As everywhere else, if you don't like an answer, then move on to the next post. In this case, an answer was provided. What is seen that it wasn't used.

and again, I see that you failed to come up with the extra apology for all the other 'viewers' happening across the offered bit of profanity. I actually talked myself out of simply Banning this user, thinking that there was a chance that a clue could be learned. Appearances are that this isn't the case.

[dra007]

Those of us who know Wazoo are a lot more forgiving because we know all the good work he did to develop and maintain this board. This would not have survived and flourished for so long without his contribution. His short temper is amuzing if taken the right way, he doesn't mean mallice and can turn around and be very helpful.. So, in the spirit of the holidays let's all just be thankful Wazoo stuk around inspite of the frustrations and all the difficulties...

[kamaraju]

Those of us who know Wazoo are a lot more forgiving because we know all the good work he did to develop and maintain this board.

Well, I am not sure about that. I myself just skip over all wazoo's replies and read other people's posts. No offense wazoo. You might be doing great technical work, but that's a different issue.

raju

[SpamCopAdmin]

Those of us who know Wazoo are a lot more forgiving because we know all the good work he did

Doing good works doesn't give us license to abandon good manners.

- Don -

[SpamCopAdmin]

As stated, the "question" asked wasn't very good to begin with.

That falls under the "too bad, so sad" rule. Not every question is going to be perfect. If you can't answer them all with logic, reason, and good humor, then don't post.

I see that you failed to come up with the extra apology for all the other 'viewers' happening across the offered bit of profanity.

You should be the one aplogizing for that. It was your ill-mannered post that generated his angry response.

- Don -

[Miss Betsy]

I wonder if Don's answer helped the OP any. My guess is that he does have a spamcop email account since he mentions held mail.

Perhaps he has figured out how to set filters - maybe by reading the FAQ since he hasn't posted again.

Although people do seem to take offense at Wazoo's pointing to the FAQ, at least they get an answer - and if they followed his advice, a helpful one. Too bad that so many people get lost in FAQ (like me) and are afraid to post admitting it (unlike me). But who knows if I knew the answer was there, I might try harder.

Miss Betsy

[dbiel]

Those of us who know Wazoo are a lot more forgiving because we know all the good work he did to develop and maintain this board.

Well, I am not sure about that. I myself just skip over all Wazoo's replies and read other people's posts. No offense wazoo. You might be doing great technical work, but that's a different issue.

raju

Well to expand a bit on dra007's quote and to pull back some content not included in this copy of the quote, this Forum as well as the Wiki, and numerous other tools, including the current archiving of the SpamCop Newsgroups would in all probability not exist today if it were not for Wazoo and his constant attention and dedication to keeping things running. I believe with all certainty that I am speaking for all the moderators of the SpamCop forums and many of its most faithful supporters, that none of us are willing or able (especially in terms of the time commitment required) to take on the work done and continuing to be done by Wazoo. That this forum would have crashed and burned years ago without Wazoo's constant vigilance, hard work and technical ability; and that we are extremely grateful and respecting of the help he has provided us. And speaking for myself, though I believe most, if not all the other moderators, would agree; that there is no one else in the paid SpamCop / IronPort staff willing/able to invest the more than full time commitment these tools have required to keep running. Other than Don, no one at IronPort has taken any time to be involved, to the extent that requests for help and guidance on the part of the moderators go unanswered. In fact not one staff member has even registered for the Wiki. Further, that our attempts at improving the FAQ have absolutely NO official support at all and nearly zero unofficial support would seem unthinkable, but is the apparent truth. TPTB are far more willing to answer questions from the individual user dealing with their individual problems one at a time, than they are at answering questions from the moderators as we attempt to build answers that are available to any and all, that cover many of the fundamental problems faced by users and provide detailed answers to many of their questions. Our goal is to make the answers to individual questions available to everyone. The TPTB have proven that they would rather answer those repetitive questions individually, one at a time, rather than invest even the least amount of time in providing help or guidance in building a comprehensive and up to date FAQ in either the Forum or Wiki. From where I stand, that is my definition of rude.

[kamaraju]

IIUC, none of the forums, wiki, FAQs in this website etc., are officially endorsed by spamcop at any point. If that is the case, I do not see any rudeness here. Some enthusiastic people are excited about the idea behind spamcop and wanted to help others. Good for them. But if they do not receive any official support from spamcop, it just means that spamcop (or Ironport or whoever in charge) does not completely agree with the methodologies employed. There is nothing rude there. Nobody asked them to do it. So they should not regret if there is no official endorsement/support. If disappointed with spamcop/Ironport, they should simply stop putting all those additional hours and work on something else interesting.

In any case, the issue is not whether wazoo has done good technical work. It is about whether his replies are helpful to the OP. IMHO, most of them are not. It is as simple as that.

[dbiel]

IIUC, none of the forums, wiki, FAQs in this website etc., are officially endorsed by spamcop at any point.

The previous statement is not 100% correct and is partly dependent upon how one defines SpamCop.

So I will point to a few reference links that might clarify what I mean.

http://forum.spamcop.net/scwik/SpamCopHistory

Forum FAQ: Section 8 - SpamCop's System & Active Staff User Guide

This is a support area for the tools provided by the SpamCop.net system. However, it is not physically connected to any of those tools, such that even if you have a SpamCop reporting account or a SpamCop Filtered E-Mail account, use of this Forum requires its own login details.

This forum is endorsed by reference by IronPort in the official FAQ as is the Newsgroups.

The Forum, Wiki, Newsgroups, etc are supported by J.T. in that they are hosted and maintained on servers provided by him. J.T. also maintains and operates the SpamCop Email services. The exact relationship between J.T. and IronPort is not known to most of us. It is enough to say that there is a tight integration between the SpamCop Email System and the SpamCop Reporting System despite the fact that they are physically located on opposite sides of the continent each with its own unique ownership structure.

J.T. has appointed Wazoo as the Administrator of the SpamCop Forums and given him administrative access to the servers housing the Forum. Since little guidance and direction have been given to Wazoo, he has taken it on his own to expand the Forum and add other tools like the Wiki.

[Miss Betsy]

All of the volunteers on the forum want to be helpful. Wazoo thinks it would be better for the questioners to look it up themselves because they would get better and more complete answers.

In most situations where there is a corporate entity that has a volunteers helping to provide services, there is cooperation and support from TPTB. In that sense, spamcop is not being very wise to not only ignore them, but criticize their efforts.

However, in spite of the fact that 'official' spamcop ignores their volunteers, most of the volunteers here are willing to spend the time because they want to be helpful to those who are fed up with spam or, in the case of server admins, have problems dealing with the spamcop blocklist.

Wazoo hasn't changed his style from the newsgroups where the same division occurred - those who understood that he really has the answers and those who have too much pride to admit that they could have posted a better question (or looked in the FAQ). I read about newsgroups before I posted - where it was suggested that it was a good idea to lurk before posting. If any of the insulted posters had lurked, they would have noticed that Wazoo generally does want you to look at the FAQ and possibly, also, that he is considered extremely knowledgable. They might also have noticed that others do answer with pointers to FAQ or a more detailed answer so that Wazoo is not the only person who could answer the question. Many others looked at this topic, but no one had an answer. Whatever you think of Wazoo's style, his answer was 'helpful' to the OP if the OP had bothered to look around.

If someone else wants to answer the question more fully, then he or she is welcome to. IMHO, it is rude to criticize another poster.

Miss Betsy

[dbiel]

An external referece worth the time reading is the Wikipedia entry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SpamCop

The history quote, may or may not be correct:

History

SpamCop was founded in 1998 as an individual effort. As the reporting service became more popular, staff was added and the SCBL became more useful. It has commonly been the target of DDoS attacks and lawsuits from organizations listed in the SCBL. Email security company IronPort purchased SpamCop, but it remains independently run with only 3-4 staff by founder Julian Haight.

[Farelf]

Old wounds, old responses. Well, hopefully I'll not be needlessly exacerbating things.

If you're not going to answer their question, then don't post.

Question was unclear, OP's resentment of the style of steering toward a hopefully more productive dialog was clearly disproportionate and possibly provides some clue as to why he has come in for "special" spammer attention in the first instance.

You should be the one aplogizing for that. It was your ill-mannered post that generated his angry response.

See above, I would respectfully suggest the genesis of that anger might precede his appearance "here" by an appreciable margin.

Certainly a more "customer oriented" response would temper-down some of these blow-ups. But he's not a customer of most of us "here". As pointed out, we don't have to answer but the ethos is to go for resolution. There's little point to these forums otherwise.

A forum administrator gets to run the forum pages his way. And this one has always taken advice where merited (only the owner gets to prescribe). Perhaps an appropriate response to the second post (apart from cleaning up the language - which I didn't see but a fair number apparently did) would be a moderator warning about obscenity and subjecting future posts to moderator approval for a while. Which would seem unnecessary if there are no further posts.

I wonder if Don's answer helped the OP any. My guess is that he does have a spamcop email account since he mentions held mail.

Perhaps he has figured out how to set filters - maybe by reading the FAQ since he hasn't posted again.

Those are the critical points, given the way the events unfolded. Personally, I was wondering whether he had thoroughly upset some telemarketer, goading him into "revenge" and supplied his SC "submit" address hoping to get some "auto reporting" going. That might make some sort of sense to a person who hasn't done some basic research. But apparently not, Don has enough information to check the likelihood of that, I should think. But then ... (my ephasis):

... This is an example of a Tracking URL; possibly the spam you're talking about.

http://www.spamcop.net/sc?id=z1175973721z0...1bbf6b27f95979z

and

...I don't know what a "spam email" is, either.

Well, conjecture is fruitless ... But if that "telemarketer" has such great access to the world of spam it sure would be nice for the rest of us spamsuffers to know some details.

[Miss Betsy]

Certainly a more "customer oriented" response would temper-down some of these blow-ups. But he's not a customer of most of us "here". As pointed out, we don't have to answer but the ethos is to go for resolution. There's little point to these forums otherwise.

Well, conjecture is fruitless ... But if that "telemarketer" has such great access to the world of spam it sure would be nice for the rest of us spamsuffers to know some details.

This is veering off topic a little, but many times those who are new to the forum don't understand that the responders are not employees of spamcop - primarily because of the 'entrance' to the forum from the spamcop official pages. They may, or may not, be more 'polite' and understand the answers in the spirit in which they are given if they were not expecting 'customer oriented' replies. (However, some people are ruder to employees than if they were addressing their peers which may account for some of the initial posts that seem to say, "Here I am. Help me." and are hard even for the mildest mannered to answer politely.)

The 'ethos' is also dialogue. We like it when someone comes back and says that what was suggested works (or it turned out not to have anything to do with spamcop). We also sometimes just have a little conversation (unlike robots or harried help desk operators). My favorite analogy is shade tree mechanics, but barber shops or general store benches or any place where people gather to talk are ok also. Usually, anyone is acceptable in those settings - especially someone who wants to learn. But those who are foolish or rude don't get much response.

Miss Betsy

[dra007]

Bottom line is that, rightly or wrongly poor Wazoo became the focus of this topic.. It could have been handled more tactfully by Don. He knows Wazoo better than many of us. Public beakering in a site frequently accessed by the spammers we all dislike so much is counterproductive..

[SpamCopAdmin]

But he's not a customer of most of us "here".

new to the forum don't understand that the responders are not employees of spamcop

This is not the first time I've seen that attitude displayed.

The volunteers might not be employees, and the users might not be technically your customers, but the fact is that this is the User Support Group and you all have taken on the role of support providers.

The people who come here are coming for help. They are NOT curiosity seekers visiting a chat room, nor are they the public passing by and sitting on your park bench, or joining you in waiting at the barber shop.

They are NOT intruders into your space. This is *their* space and you're here to help them.

You have taken on the role of support provider of your own free will and you should be willing to play the role, if not with some technical expertise, at least with good humor and good manners.

If you can't do that regardless of how the user behaves, you shouldn't be participating in these forums.

This is the User Support Group. Either provide the support, or don't post.

If you feel the need to chide, chastise, or criticize the user, then don't post.

- Don -

[dbiel]

This is the User Support Group. Either provide the support, or don't post

- Don -

When the question is not presented in a way that can be understood or the information required to attempt to answer the question is not provided, the only real choice is to ask for more information or point them to the FAQ where they might find some answers or at least find some help in writing a question that can be answered. I guess that there is one other choice and that is to simply ignore the topic / "question" but that is not our style but appears to be yours.

How would you address the following:

when I write by mail at francoise.kremer[at]femsante.com or direction[at]femsante.com I have a mail delivery system and I want to know why ?

or the following reply from a different user from the same IP address two months later

hello !!

i am nicolas mignard the webmaster of the association of women's for ever now you can write to direction[at]femsante.com or francoise.kremer[at]femsante.com the site is repaired and we give you an aswer as soon as possible

if you have always any problem you can write to femme pour toujours women's for ever 17 rue des nannette paris 75011 france we give you an answer too

[turetzsr]

...Let's not all (the volunteers) get too wrapped up in what Don posts here. While he is an official SpamCop/IronPort representative he is not AIUI one of TPTB with respect to the SpamCop Forum. There is one and only one PTB of the Forum -- JT -- and, for better or worse Wazoo is his representative as the owner/administrator of the SpamCop Forum. SpamCop/IronPort staff are welcome (and encouraged to participate more than they have in the past) here but their opinion on how we should address each other bears no more weight (at least, not for me) than anyone else (except "newbies," whose opinions rate somewhat lower [although are many times equal or superior to those of us who have been here longer] <g>).

...FWIW, I agree with Don and Raju that we should generally adopt a more welcoming, patient attitude towards those who come here asking for help but I couldn't disagree more with his "be nice (as I, Don, define it) or don't post at all" directive, especially with respect to Wazoo, who is so often helpful even when (in Don's view) "chiding."

...Frankly, we discuss this far too much. The activity in these Forums and the number of ultimately satisfied participants is a positive testament to what we (mostly Wazoo) do. Don's views shouldn't be ignored but neither should they be taken any more seriously than anyone else's. Let him have his say about chiding the users, help the users with his replies, and move on without taking him to task over and over.

[SpamCopAdmin]

When the question is not presented in a way that can be understood or the information required to attempt to answer the question is not provided, the only real choice is to ask for more information or point them to the FAQ where they might find some answers or at least find some help in writing a question that can be answered. I guess that there is one other choice and that is to simply ignore the topic / "question" but that is not our style but appears to be yours.

Are you telling me that the volunteers can't ask the user a question without browbeating him or making a snide remark?

I am completely amazed at what I'm seeing here. The resistance to using good manners in these forums has me dumbfounded. I have never seen so many arguments against being nice to the users who come here.

- Don -

[Farelf]

I am completely amazed at what I'm seeing here. The resistance to using good manners in these forums has me dumbfounded. I have never seen so many arguments against being nice to the users who come here.

A review of the actual behavior of the volunteers would present a different picture, perhaps. Your points are incontestable in general, everyone agrees in general (it seems to me, based partly on observation of how they do generally behave). The resistance you find is not about that, IMO (I could draw you a picture ...). But of course it's good [great, in fact] to see you "here" and many have ample cause to be grateful for your insight, knowledge and access to SC systems. Makes the volunteers' self-appointed tasks easier because "we" share the goal of providing help to those who need it.

[dbiel]

When the question is not presented in a way that can be understood or the information required to attempt to answer the question is not provided, the only real choice is to ask for more information or point them to the FAQ where they might find some answers or at least find some help in writing a question that can be answered. I guess that there is one other choice and that is to simply ignore the topic / "question" but that is not our style but appears to be yours.

Are you telling me that the volunteers can't ask the user a question without browbeating him or making a snide remark?

I am completely amazed at what I'm seeing here. The resistance to using good manners in these forums has me dumbfounded. I have never seen so many arguments against being nice to the users who come here.

- Don -

Your creative reading abilities continue to amaze me. I see no reference to browbeating or snide remarks in the post your are replying to. It is apparently your desire to read much more into a post than is there. If you are refering to "where they might find some answers or at least find some help in writing a question that can be answered." that is simply the reason to point to the FAQ, not copy to be included when pointing to the FAQ.

Equally amazing is your avoidance of the following quoted statement "one other choice .... is to simply ignore the topic .... (which) appears to be your (preference)" shortened for clarity, the entire quote appears above. Which is further supported by your ignoring the direct question put to you in the very next sentence that you clipped from your quote of post #27 "How would you address the following:"

It would seem that you would rather chide than answer direct questions, or are we speaking different languages and you do not see the previous quote as a direct question addressed to you?

[rooster]

Wazoo:

Remember: "No good deed (or avocation) goes unpunished" [1]; eh?

Don:

"Never flog a working horse." [2]

Spamcop Admins, generally:

On "Supervision in a Volunteer Environment"[3]

[1] Mark Twain; "Life on the Mississippi"

[2] Nana 'Fee

[3] http://www.amtraining.co.uk/ncv/Effective%20Supervision.pdf.

http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:yW6We...lient=firefox-a

[bobbear]

I once made the mistake of criticising a highly competent & helpful member of another technical forum for his boorish displays of intolerance and ill manners, my point simply being that good manners and helpfulness are not mutually exclusive. I was promptly shat on from a great height....

It taught me that those negative qualities seem to count for little these days & are easily outweighed in most people's eyes by positive technical & other qualities. It is not a view that I personally hold, but, as usual, I was in a small minority.

In another age it may have been different, but we now find ourselves in an age where anger, intolerance & rudeness sadly seem to be an acceptable norm.