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List blacklisting email directed toward spamcop/spamhaus domain

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A few minutes ago, I was told by a tech at gvtc.com (a local ISP) that anyone attempting to email me at my spamcop.net address would have their email bounced back...something to do with the list service they used.

The tech said that all Spamcop had to do was request to be removed...I told him that I suspected that Spamcop/Spamhaus were being blacklisted BECAUSE they reported spam & the list was covering (& making their $'s) for spammers.

Further I was directed to http://www.rulesemporium.com/cgi-bin/uribl.cgi for any further questions...I tried but got nowhere (as far as these old brain cells could tell), but did learn that the site is hosted or connected to SpamAssasin. Isn't that the service used here?

What is going on?

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...Can't address your underlying question but I wanted to make the point that, AFAIK, SpamCop doesn't really care all that much about the bounces -- SpamCop isn't hurt by such action. For that matter, I would suggest that you shouldn't care, either. IMHO, your response should be to take your business to a provider that doesn't take such a cavalier attitude towards its subscribers.

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"...SpamCop doesn't really care all that much about the bounces -- SpamCop isn't hurt by such action..."

Which is kinda sorta what I told the tech, however while SpamCop may not be hurt, the people trying to get in touch with me ARE.

"...your response should be to take your business to a provider that doesn't take such a cavalier attitude towards it subscribers..."

This is semi-rural Texas & I have to use at least their system to access the web & most of the people in this part of the county use their emailing service. Besides it's not their attitude that sucks but their listing service.

This is the second time I've come across a listing service that has blocked any messages going to spamcop or spamhaus. Just how pervasive is this?

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There are a number of ISPs that try to block outgoing email that "looks like spam". Of course, spam being reported generally "looks like spam" (go figure), so tends to end up getting caught by these filters.

I can't actually recall hearing of any ISPs blocking submissions to spamcop intentionally by IP range though.

If that message didn't make any sense, I'll try to fix it when the fever goes down a bit, its hard to have a clear thought when you have a cold.

Edited by Telarin

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<snip>

"...SpamCop doesn't really care all that much about the bounces -- SpamCop isn't hurt by such action..."

Which is kinda sorta what I told the tech, however while SpamCop may not be hurt, the people trying to get in touch with me ARE.

...Which is why you should switch providers (if you can).
"...your response should be to take your business to a provider that doesn't take such a cavalier attitude towards it subscribers..."

This is semi-rural Texas & I have to use at least their system to access the web & most of the people in this part of the county use their emailing service.

...No choice at all? Many places in the US seem to have at least one cable provider and one satellite provider (doesn't AT&T offer satellite internet service in your area, or is AT&T's satellite service only for TV?) and sometimes there's even a DSL provider.
Besides it's not their attitude that sucks but their listing service.

<snip>

...And was this listing service forced on them (your ISP) or did they choose it?

There are a number of ISPs that try to block outgoing email that "looks like spam". Of course, spam being reported generally "looks like spam" (go figure), so tends to end up getting caught by these filters.
...All the more ironic, since their incoming filters didn't identify it as spam in the first place and refuse it. Note, however, that is not what's happening in this case -- e-mail directed to the OP's SpamCop e-mail address is being bounced by her/his provider.

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If it's semi-rural, then the OP probably doesn't have a choice. In the semi-rural area I live in, there is no cable or DSL outside city limits. I am not sure about the choice of providers via dial up. There might be two.

It probably isn't a good idea to use 'bounced' to describe what is happening. Is this what is happening? An email is being sent to a spamcop address. The email is not spam; it is a regular email, but the ISP of the sender (another local individual who has to use this ISP) is not allowing it to be sent.

"Bounced" implies, it seems to me, that the email was sent to your spamcop address and 'bounced' returned to the sender because spamcop wouldn't accept it.

I don't know what a list service is, but if it is a filtering service utilizing spamassassin, the reason has nothing to do with spamcop, but with the IP address of the sender.

Miss Betsy

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If it's semi-rural, then the OP probably doesn't have a choice...
I don't have a choice, the ISP owns the fiberoptics, even if I wanted to use another provider I would still have to pay to access that provider.
...It probably isn't a good idea to use 'bounced' to describe what is happening...
that is correct, it's not being bounced, it's being blocked by the listing thingy that the ISP is now using.
...Is this what is happening? An email is being sent to a spamcop address. The email is not spam; it is a regular email, but the ISP of the sender (another local individual who has to use this ISP) is not allowing it to be sent...
yes, someone is attempting to send me a regular email. The ISP list does not allow any email going to the domain "spamcop" or "spamhaus".
..."Bounced" implies, it seems to me, that the email was sent to your spamcop address and 'bounced' returned to the sender because spamcop wouldn't accept it.
"Blocked" is a better term for what is happening. this is not the first time I have come across this where some listing agency has blocked regular email being sent to me at my 'spamcop' address. That time I did get the supervisor of the listing place to admit that there were too many reports of 'spam' coming from 'spamcop' & they did not want to do anything. Sure sounds like to me that the listing agency knew they were being used by spammers but didn't want to kill the goose - that was paying them.
...I don't know what a list service is, but if it is a filtering service utilizing spamassassin, the reason has nothing to do with spamcop, but with the IP address of the sender.
Edited by Farelf

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That time I did get the supervisor of the listing place to admit that there were too many reports of 'spam' coming from 'spamcop' & they did not want to do anything. Sure sounds like to me that the listing agency knew they were being used by spammers but didn't want to kill the goose - that was paying them.

Just use your email client to directly send and recieve from SpamCop Email (use port 587 instead of default port 25) SpamCop Email is prbably faster than from your provider at any rate

I use my USB drive securerly from any windows computer infected or not The password Saver program secures all passwords from dataloggers and or what ever and saves me having to take a laptop with me

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Well, if you're using GVTC it's hard to see them ever having any problems with blocklists (they're tiny), consequently any need to stop subscribers talking to SC or using a SC address (don't see how your address would figure in their deliberations anyway) - but maybe someone reported their own provider from there once, who knows. More likely they just don't allow "other services" through their network.

I do, however, seem to recall an ancient topic somewhere where a mail subscriber had to (ultimately) change from spamcop.net to cesmail.net or something (same service, no charge at that time IIRC) but whether that was because of blocking or not, I can't recall.

A more subtle approach for a provider to thwart volume reporting (deliberately or not) is to block all mail containing spam, that way reports can't get sent but, with large providers, there's enough mismatch between inwards and outwards servers (heuristics, cached lists, whatever) so that some gets in but (mostly) can't get reported out a short time later. But that is not what is being discussed here by all appearances.

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Just use your email client to directly send and recieve from SpamCop Email (use port 587 instead of default port 25) SpamCop Email is prbably faster than from your provider at any rate

I use my USB drive securerly from any windows computer infected or not The password Saver program secures all passwords from dataloggers and or what ever and saves me having to take a laptop with me

I'm not sure exactly what you are talking about, tho pretty sure port 25 is not what is in use. I use a MAC running OS 10.4.11. I don't have any problems sending email the only problem that exists is the listing agency blocks anyone from sending email to the spamcop domain.

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A few minutes ago, I was told by a tech at gvtc.com (a local ISP) that anyone attempting to email me at my spamcop.net address would have their email bounced back...something to do with the list service they used....

I'm not sure that you've yet identified this mysterious "list service" just yet. The "Rules Emporium" (aka "SARE") is a service that has created some custom rulesets for SpamAssassin, which is used on many servers to analyze/filter incoming spam (including that sent *to* SC email addresses). However the SpamCop domains are not in any way "listed" at that site, so you're really going to need to go back to the provider for clarification and some better information.

The lookup tool they referred you to allows you to check if domains are listed on these two URI-RBLs:

multi.surbl.org

multi.uribl.com

Those list spamvertized URLS found in the body of email addresses and are used by SpamAssassin (and other filtering methods) to flag possible spam based not on the source IP, but rather on links in the body. Here are two informative links:

http://www.surbl.org/lists.html

http://www.uribl.com/about.shtml

This can't be an explanation for email being blocked that simply addresses to a "spamcop.net" address (or spamhaus)...is that what they're claiming? If so, they are morons!

So, we can't really determine anything about what's going on without better information.

[on edit] Just did a little more poking around...on the GVTC.com site, in their "Internet" section, the link for "24hr. Tech Support" points to "helpcafe.com" a generic help system provided by a little company in Lenexa, KS. Take a look at this page:

http://helpcafe.com/index_win.asp

Notice anything missing? (hint: it starts with a "V") Good grief! So...here's my suggestion: anyone using a sub-standard ISP like this one shouldn't count on their email being reliable, and should use alternate web-based addresses for their communications...GMail might be good option, or even a SpamCop email account, which, as mentioned earlier, can be utilized to bypass idiotic ISPs (that's what meant by "use port 587 instead of port 25" which is what I do to bypass my ISP) . That way, their provider won't be involved with messing up their inbound our outbound communications.

DT

Edited by DavidT

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A few minutes ago, I was told by a tech at gvtc.com (a local ISP) that anyone attempting to email me at my spamcop.net address would have their email bounced back...something to do with the list service they used. .....

What is going on?

I think I'm coherent at the moment. Yet, I'm still having issues groking the above statement.

How can one ISP make the call that 'anyone sending e-mail to yet another ISP-hosted account will fail' ...????

I can only read that dialog as actually meaning that any 'gvtc.com' hosted user trying to send an e-mail to a .spam* domain name is what actually gets 'mismanaged' .... this is quite a difference in the definition of the problem. Working within this orbit, then I would say that your issue is in fact already long addressed within the SpamCop FAQ as found 'here' .... ISP blocking your e-mail is the hint at the title .....

The troubleshooting steps would also seem applicable; you send an e-mail to your spamcop.net account with a CC; to yet another account on yet another hosted system, say Yahoo, HotMail, etc. to see if either e-mail makes it out of the outgoing gvtc.com e-mail server.

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It is probably true that if GVTC owns the wires (or glass, in this case), then you don't have much choice in bandwidth providers unless you take up with cable or satellite.

However, just because you have to pay GVTC for the bandwidth does not mean that you must use their e-mail services. You can simply bypass them. All you need to do is to find another provider who will let you send mail through their outgoing hosts and to pick up (POP or IMAP) from their incoming hosts. This means that GVTC must allow you to make connections to the external system's mail hosts on the correct ports (port 25 for outbound mail (or port 587 as suggested above), and port 110 for POP3 incoming mail (or port 220 for IMAP if you prefer)).

You may have to use a username and password with these external hosts, and if you do I recommend you make up a good strong uncrackable password (and username, if possible).

-- rick

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I'm not sure exactly what you are talking about, tho pretty sure port 25 is not what is in use. I use a MAC running OS 10.4.11. I don't have any problems sending email the only problem that exists is the listing agency blocks anyone from sending email to the spamcop domain.

Your email client can POP (recieve) SpamCop directly pop.spamcop.net

SMTP (send) smtp.cesmail.net change from port 25 to port 587

Imap can be set up also using imap.spamcop.net

Sending email has to be done on smtp.cesmail.net change from port 25 to port 587

I know the server names are different but that's what works? JT perhaps needs to update? The last mention of this was done in 2004

I am not longer familiar with MAC computers so detail about set-up needs to come from someone who is. I would find a MAC "password saver" that operates from a USB device as it allows very complicated passwords to be remembered

It is never a good idea to use your providers email "service" ISP's are usually only good at milking bank accounts

Edited by petzl

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Petzl -- I think you're off track. IIUC, the issue raised by the OP has to do with difficulties other people are having sending to the OP's SpamCop email address, so the OP doesn't need information about the settings for a SpamCop email account.

DT

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Petzl -- I think you're off track. IIUC, the issue raised by the OP has to do with difficulties other people are having sending to the OP's SpamCop email address, so the OP doesn't need information about the settings for a SpamCop email account.

I know that the OP's "provider" is blocking any email "to" address with SpamCop in it?

No difficulties involved just another of many "providers" being an arse

As usual the answer is not to use an incompetent provider for email just by-pass them

Best move anyone will do. SpamCop servers are fast, very fast and no-nonsense ultra reliable

A SpamCop email address is the only email address you will ever need

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I think we need the OP to come back and clarify things....the very first post stated:

"anyone attempting to email me at my spamcop.net address would have their email bounced back"

that didn't imply to me that the OP's provider was involved....the OP wrote "a local ISP" not "my ISP." Just don't want us wasting any more time on this until that's clear and the other issues I raised about URI-BLs are dealt with by the OP.

DT

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I think we need the OP to come back and clarify things....the very first post stated:

"anyone attempting to email me at my spamcop.net address would have their email bounced back"

that didn't imply to me that the OP's provider was involved....the OP wrote "a local ISP" not "my ISP." Just don't want us wasting any more time on this until that's clear and the other issues I raised about URI-BLs are dealt with by the OP.

It evolved in a further post that the "OP" was having email bounced simply because of it being addressed to a SpamCop email address

I never use the email address of a provider and ask for a discount (each call to a provider costs around $50 to answer)

SpamCop email servers will be the last to go down in the event of any catastrophe Power off generators take over, generators fail, UPS kicks in This fails BIG Gyro's keep them alive for considerable time By the time SpamCop Email system drops out the planet will be uninhabital

A SpamCop email address is the only email address you will ever need

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It evolved in a further post that the "OP" was having email bounced simply because of it being addressed to a SpamCop email address

I had already read that post very carefully...but it doesn't quite make sense, due to issues I've already raised. Betsy speculated that they both might be using the same incompetent ISP already identified...the OP seemed to confirm that, but the issue at hand is *not* what the OP can or can't send....it's what a friend of the OP can't send, and the reason given here so far is basically nonsensical.

We're wasting time....let's wait for the OP.

DT

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It evolved in a further post that the "OP" was having email bounced simply because of it being addressed to a SpamCop email address

I never use the email address of a provider and ask for a discount (each call to a provider costs around $50 to answer)

SpamCop email servers will be the last to go down in the event of any catastrophe Power off generators take over, generators fail, UPS kicks in This fails BIG Gyro's keep them alive for considerable time By the time SpamCop Email system drops out the planet will be uninhabital

A SpamCop email address is the only email address you will ever need

I wish I knew more about systems & such. I have a spamcop account (I also have an alternative account elsewhere). GVTC put down/owns the fibreoptics used in this sector of semi-rural Texas. When someone using their email system (gvtc.com) attempt to send an email to a spamcop (or spamhaus) address, it is automatically blocked. That sender receives a message the email is 'undeliverable'. As far as I know, I can send emails to a gvtc.com address, so I'm not being blocked when I use my spamcop address.

When I phoned GVTC to inquire I spoke with a man here in Texas, not Kansas. He attempted to send me an email going thru the normal gvtc.com & received that message. He told me that when he checked (somehow) that it was the List that GVTC uses. I told him SpamCop did not send spam, it reported spam. All he could say was that that was why email being sent to me was being blocked.

He gave me an address to check (it was one of the two someone above mentioned) I did & it was a SpamAssasin site. It did not make sense that the filter used by SpamCop would also be the filter that blocked email from being sent.

Since this is not the first time email has been blocked from being sent (it was from a friends business who used a list from some provider - the same reason was given, that all emails being sent to the spamcop/spamhaus domain was removed before it left). So I posted my original question which was supposed to question - just how prevelant is this practive of blocking emails being sent to spamcop/spamhaus? I don't know if ya'll can even answer if you're not aware of a problem, if it even exists in any large manner or not. But I was curious if others had had this same problem.

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The information given to you by the ISP was flawed...don't take what they say as gospel truth. Their web-based online "Help" is indeed from a tiny third-party in Kansas...your ISP is clearly incompetent, and you should warn others using the ISP to use your alternate address.

You made some connections between the SARE site and SpamCop's use of SpamAssassin, but those are coincidental, and can't in any way explain the issues you've had. The SARE rules having to do with URI/URL filtering surely have nothing to do with the difficulty that your ISP is apparently causing.

No, this kind of thing is not common at all. Both my wife and I have been using SpamCop addresses for years and have never had anyone report having difficulty in reaching us.

DT

Edited by DavidT

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The information given to you by the ISP was flawed...don't take what they say as gospel truth. Their web-based online "Help" is indeed from a tiny third-party in Kansas...your ISP is clearly incompetent, and you should warn others using the ISP to use your alternate address.

You made some connections between the SARE site and SpamCop's use of SpamAssassin, but those are coincidental, and can't in any way explain the issues you've had. The SARE rules having to do with URI/URL filtering surely have nothing to do with the difficulty that your ISP is apparently causing.

No, this kind of thing is not common at all. Both my wife and I have been using SpamCop addresses for years and have never had anyone report having difficulty in reaching us.

Thank you. What I don't understand is "The information given to you by the ISP was flawed..." Please understand email being sent to domain spamcop/spamhaus IS NOT being sent, it IS blocked by whomever GVTC is using for 'listing'. The reason given is the exact same reason I ran across 5 years or so ago by a listing service used by a friend for her business. I was not receiving newletters. So I phoned that service, who acknowledged they removed any email going to the spamcop/spamhaus domain. There was little I could do except get an alternative email, which I did. The point is that both listing service, then and now, say the same thing..."flawed" reasoning perhaps, but actual information totally true - the blocking is going on at this time and probably by at least two listing services..."common"? well perhaps not but GVTC provides services to a huge chunk of South Central Texas and that other listing service is one still operating for various business' nationwide. I too have been a SpamCop user for years, but I do wonder about the prevalence of this blackballing.

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What I don't understand is "The information given to you by the ISP was flawed..."

It doesn't add up, given what you've presented here to date. The link you provided was to a URI-RBL rule system that most likely is *not* involved in the blocking, because that's not what those type of RBLs and rules do. That's why I assert that the information is flawed and incorrect. Your provider needs to provide you with the *true* process involved in the blocking. I don't think they've done that yet, and they might not be competent enough to do so.

Please understand email being sent to domain spamcop/spamhaus IS NOT being sent, it IS blocked by whomever GVTC is using for 'listing'.

I'll accept that at face value, but again, so far, you've not provided us with details that make sense, IMO.

The reason given is the exact same reason I ran across 5 years or so ago by a listing service used by a friend for her business. I was not receiving newletters. So I phoned that service, who acknowledged they removed any email going to the spamcop/spamhaus domain.

For one thing, five years is extremely long in "Internet years," so anything happening way back then is most likely of little use at this point. And what was the specific "listing service" at that point? And did you come here and post anything about it?

the blocking is going on at this time and probably by at least two listing services...

In the "two" are you counting that five-year-old incident? Or are you saying there are two services *currently* involved in blocking. Again, it would be extremely helpful to the consideration of this topic if you could get your provider to give better information about the current blocking.

DT

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It doesn't add up, given what you've presented here to date. The link you provided was to a URI-RBL rule system that most likely is *not* involved in the blocking, because that's not what those type of RBLs and rules do. That's why I assert that the information is flawed and incorrect. Your provider needs to provide you with the *true* process involved in the blocking. I don't think they've done that yet, and they might not be competent enough to do so.

I'll just close this. The listing agent for the business is still being used by my friend in her business & GVTC is using a list that does the same thing, so as far as I can see that's not 5 years apart. I don't have the knowledge to do what you ask, I'm barely computer-literate. I don't really understand what you're asking. So if you really want to know call GVTC at their 1-800 number or email them for that information.

I truely appreciate all the help & information that has been listed, it's now at a technical point in the discussion that is way over my head.

Thank you all.

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The listing agent for the business is still being used by my friend in her business...

Again...providing the name of that "agent" would most likely have been helpful...keeping it secret...not so much.

Sorry I was only able to throw some doubt into the situation, but for archival purposes, it's better that I do that so that someone coming along later doesn't point to the information as authoritative. It will just have to remain a bit mysterious, in that I'm pretty sure that a conversation with the (apparently quite confused) ISP would be a waste of time.

Peace,

DT

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