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A.J.Mechelynck

Unsolicited non-commercial bulk email

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Yes, SpamBo ...

But please read the definition of UBE from Spamhaus.

It is not a lot of the things you are talking about.

Your position is just a bit extreme.

spam is "Unsolicited Bulk or Commercial Email", nothing more, nothing less.

The fact that you know the sender DOES NOT mean that you have forfeited your right to consent to bulk or commercial email.

Again, I am NOT saying that you should use SpamCop or other services to LART your relatives (and other people shouldn't use it to LART their friends either).

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I swore that I wasn't even going to try to respond to this thread because it is too difficult to keep track of the responses.

However, the only way to control spam is to make precise definitions. spam is unsolicited and unwanted email period. All unsolicited email is rude. It is up to the individual who receives it to decide what to do, to forgive the rudeness, to object, or to complain.

The problem is bulk unsolicited email whether commercial or not. Once one starts to define what is acceptable or what is not acceptable, one gets into trouble in having an action plan.

UBE is never acceptable. Businesses who want to make first contacts still have the ways that put the burden of payment on them. Businesses can also solicit individual contacts by publishing special addresses or by using forms on their web sites. Even on the internet, there are ways to solicit job applications or sales without using UBE and it is rude to use other addresses.

Since UBE is the problem, then /only/ UBE should be reportable especially through a service such as spamcop. By the same token, ISP's should respond to UBE complaints and take action. For unsolicited individual complaints, it would depend on the ISP's policies whether to reprimand the sender or to ignore the complaintant.

Directed has absolutely nothing to do with email. There are only confirmed subscription or ways of contact with the business (such as sales addresses). Any business that uses 'directed' bulk email should be reported. In addition, it is a total waste of time, because the good customers (the ones who are responsible and intelligent) will have deleted any unsolicited email. Sales letters to an appropriate email addresses are acceptable, though I would delete any bulk ones as people I would not want to do business with. There are plenty of mailing lists I can subscribe to in order to keep aware of comparison pricing or new products. And lots of ways that I can find those lists.

Miss Betsy

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However, we run several large corporations and we receive

and send "first contact" unsolicited email all the time. It's the

business equivalent of a "job application". By your apparent

standards, we'd dump your job application in the garbage.

There is a difference between unsolicited and bulk email, and

a difference between "directed" bulk email and that broadcast

indiscriminately to millions of people it isn't applicable to.

yourbuddy:

How do you get these email addresses? My company's web site has several email addresses for the different products we develop and manufacture. The web site specifically states these addresses are for inquiries about our products and about our company. They are not for people to sell their services to us.

We expect a call to our front desk for the salesperson to get the correct email address for the person he needs to contact. All other email is reported and deleted per company rules. We are not to deal with any company that introduces themselves via spam. There are plenty of other companies to deal with.

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Miss Betsy ...

It's all very interesting, but ...

Commercial and Non-commercial organizations send "directed,

first contact" email in "reasonable quantities" to selected people

that "due to their profile" may be interested in these services.

This is simply advertising using email, just like advertising that

uses Radio, TV, print media, etc. It doesn't need the recipients

prior approval (how would you get that, without contacting?).

If the "prospect" needs to initiate contact, not much gets sold.

Edited by yourbuddy

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Commercial and Non-commercial organizations send "directed, first contact" email in "reasonable quantities" to selected people that "due to their profile" may be interested in these services.

This is simply advertising using email, just like advertising that

uses Radio, TV, print media, etc. It doesn't need the recipients

prior approval (how would you get that, without contacting?).

The difference is that is those other media, the advertiser pays the bulk of the money to get the message out. In email advertising, the "listener" pays the bulk of the money.

If the "prospect" needs to initiate contact, not much gets sold.

There are plenty of other ways to get your message out. You mentioned many of them. And they do not cost the "prospect" money to hear them.

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Email is appropriate advertising media.

Marketing (advertising and salesmanship) are integral to

a consumer economy (particularly for the introduction of

new products). Without it, none of you would have jobs.

Nothing happens untill something gets sold.

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Email is appropriate advertising media
.

ONLY when it is confirmed subscription by the recipient.

Unsolicited bulk email is rude, irresponsible, ignorant, and incompetent.

Bulk email delivered without cost to the recipient such as postal mail or carrier is appropriate as long as the recipient does not request you to stop.

In the US, bulk email delivered by fax is illegal because it uses resources of the recipient and costs them money. The same is true of unsolicited email only it is not illegal.

There are numerous ways of getting the consumer's attention for new products on the internet including confirmed subscription mailing lists. Unsolicited email is totally unnecessary.

Miss Betsy

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Email is appropriate advertising media.

That is your opinion, mine exactly matches Miss Betsy's statement. I report all email advertisements sent to me unless I have dealt with the business and agreed to receive their message.

For any new product I need to purchase, I rely on a web search and independent investigation to decide on a vendor.

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Email is appropriate advertising media.

Only if the user has confirmed an opt-in to that particular company. By doing that they warrant that they are willing to pay the freight for the email from that company only.

Anything else is spam. Even Amber Alerts are spam if the user has not confirmed an opt-in to receive them from that particular service.

...Ken

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Don't agree with above 3 posts - they are fanatical views.

Sure, kick, scream and complain all you want, but someday

you are invited back into the real world - instead of the myopic

SpamCop world of pretend enemies sending "unsolicited" email.

Who would want to send you an email anyway :D

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I am beginning to think that spamcop didn't make a mistake in yourbuddy's case.

There are lots of merchants who would like to send me advertisements. I have an extremely good credit rating and disposable income.

I love to shop on the Internet - it is so easy to compare prices and to find what you want and it can be done in the wee hours of the morning! I don't always sign up for the mailing list because what I have purchased is a gift and I may not purchase another for a long time. I do sign up for some mailing lists and as long as they go to the mailing list folder, I rarely unsubscribe.

However, I never buy from an unsolicited email. I don't even open anything that I don't recognize. If I were a business and wanted to solicit vendor bids for my business purchases, I would create a particular online way for vendors to contact me.

There is absolutely no need for me to pay for emails that I do not want.

It is not fanatical; it is common sense. yourbuddy is living in yesterday's world.

Miss Betsy

Moderator: IMHO, it is time to move this topic to the Lounge. While I don't object to some non-help oriented discussion, it is time that the help forum is restored to question/answers.

Edited by Miss Betsy

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Moderator: IMHO, it is time to move this topic to the Lounge. While I don't object to some non-help oriented discussion, it is time that the help forum is restored to question/answers.

Agreed, Miss Betsy. Have been focusing in on those other technical ones a bit too much latley .. moving this will be easy <g>

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Don't agree with above 3 posts - they are fanatical views.

Sure, kick, scream and complain all you want, but someday

you are invited back into the real world - instead of the myopic SpamCop world of pretend enemies sending "unsolicited" email.

This has been my view for about the last 3 years. I only found SpamCop about 15 months ago. Perhaps I was drawn here because the method made sense to me (and apparently LOTS of other people).

Before that I simply deleted the messages until I started receiving porn and searched to locate a place to track down the source (just like I do when I am searching for a product to purchase). :D

Who would want to send you an email anyway  :D

I guess almost 200 people per day who are trying to relieve some of my "problems". :lol:

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Don't agree with above 3 posts - they are fanatical views.

Sure, kick, scream and complain all you want, but someday

you are invited back into the real world - instead of the myopic

SpamCop world of pretend enemies sending "unsolicited" email.

Who would want to send you an email anyway  :D

I am in the real world. I run a small corporate mail server and see the load that spam causes on it. Of the ~6,000 messages we receive every day, less than 500 are legit communication. The rest are spam. I solve some of that by blocking ~5,000 at the server and report about 200 a day from spamtraps. The rest get through and I suspect that each user still gets 50% or more spam each day. That represents real work lost and a real cost to the company.

About a year ago, a spammer broke into our mail server and sent a load of spam. By the time I got in the next morning, the damage was done. Cleanup amounted to at least a day of my time (not cheap!), and blocked mail service for 48 hours. Again, more wasted labor.

Yes, yourbuddy, I do live in the real world, and I fight back any way I can. I would love to have a few minutes alone with the guy that broke into my system. I guarantee he would never do that again. Spammers are now sworn enemies.

...Ken

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Yes, all very interesting, but ...

We were discussing a limited amount of email directed at

a specific (and limited audience), on a first contact basis.

Don't you think you've gone a little overboard?

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Yes, all very interesting, but ...

We were discussing a limited amount of email directed at

a specific (and limited audience), on a first contact basis.

Don't you think you've gone a little overboard?

Not at all. If even a small percentage of the millions of companies in the world started doing what you are proposing, email would come to a grinding halt.

Do you know how many specific and limited groups each person in the world belongs to? Each company? And do you know how often people who send directed email to our company think that we would be interested in their product.

My company produces parts which make other parts which go to cell phone manufacturers. Our company profile says this. In one case we have one very persistant spammer trying to unload his supply of cell phones on us. I contacted him by phone and he said "You are in the cell phone business, you should be interested in these".

I have yet to see a spam message specific and limited to what we do or directed at the right address.

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I wondered when someone would bring that up. I think that someone figured out that you would probably get in the neighborhood of 600 emails a day if legitimate businesses just in the US started sending 'directed' email.

And as Stephen points out, it is not that easy to send 'directed' email. We get all kinds of bulk snail mail and 'directed' email but none of it applies because we have a 'niche' business - very specialized.

And I am going to repeat, unsolicited email is totally unnecessary on the internet. There are numerous ways to get in the search engines - there are links from other web pages - there are confirmed subscription mailing lists. And there are the offline methods of introducing your product that don't put the cost on the recipient.

Miss Betsy

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Really now, why use extreme examples :rolleyes:

Could it be because you can only "prove" your point

by going to extremes - as you do with overly aggressive

reporting of "spam", that isn't real spam a lot of the time.

Perhaps you could change the name to "SpamWarrior"

and then you could "declare war on spam terrorism", just

like emulating George "Dubya", and you could make some

"pre-emptive strikes" against those that might spam.

You could all have little uniforms, and start off as Privates

and then work your way up to Captains and even Generals,

and Julian could be the "Supreme Commander" of all.

Surely, that would appeal to most of you :D

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If you ever visited .social, you would find that a large chunk of dedicated spam fighters are also dedicated anti-dubya.

I have no desire to be a warrior or even a cop. I just follow Miss Manners' rules. It is not polite to make a collect call to sell something. And those who act in such a way to disrupt society are to be ignored. The block is the equivalent of the 'cut direct.'

I am not saying that you cannot send directed emails to anyone you want to. I am saying that I will not accept them and that I will say to someone who sends them to me, "Sorry, but you just stepped on my foot." and expect an apology and for them to watch where they are going next time. If they don't, then I don't think I want to include them in my circle of friends and acquaintances.

And since you have not presented any factual information to prove that our positions are extreme, but have resorted to name calling, I don't think you have any factual information to back up your claims.

Miss Betsy

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Well, the Ann Landers or Betty Crocker method of determining

spam is fine by me, if that's what you want to use - but why not

go back and read the Spamhaus definition of spam, which I can

agree with, and this respected organization is back up enough.

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I don't think your"buddy" understands what spam is, most of the spam I report is offensive, abusive and leads to broken and useless links in Chiana or Hong Kong, I see no commercial use in them other then abuse me, I have no interest in over the counter (and most likely illegal) medication whatever it promises to cure, increase or decrease...I do not like to be informed my credit card has been charged for a product I never wanted to buy from a non-existent web site in Uzbekistan, the latest spam I get is from a lesbian site (a dozen or so today alone), I have no interest in porn, nor do I ever visit those sites, willingly or unwillingly....It is this spam that needs to be stopped, not legitimate internet business ...Besides, legitimate business gives you the option to unsubscribe.

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Really now, why use extreme examples  :rolleyes:

Because we are all speaking in hypothetheticals here.

You are insinuating an extreme case in the opposite direction, that I will receive only a few direct marketed unsolicited emails and I should not report them. If sending email advertisements unsolicited becomes accepted (it is not now as legitimate busineses realize they will either upset their potential customers or be filtered/blocked and not get their message through) I will not get 1 or 2 a day, I will get dozens. As Miss Betsy argued, I am also in one of the high focus demographics, married male 18-35 with disposable income.

Also, how often are you going to send a "first contact" message. Advertising is never a one time thing. Repetition is what makes it effective. You send a first contact mssage and (I'll be generous) 75% get tossed before being opened, another 20% probably get opened and deleted as soon as they see it is an advertisement. That leaves 5% who MIGHT read your message. Ask them about it in a day and they will not be able to recall your company name or the product you were selling. Not a very goo return (oh that's right, it cost you nothing because you already needed the bandwidth for your website which has no hits).

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We are (at least I am) talking business to business first contact

email (not a permanent spam list), with a legitimate unsubscribe.

We are not (at least I am not) talking about a spam operation.

Who cares about your personal demographics and your income!

You can always make a point, if you refuse to see the point. Read

the Spamhaus definition of spam, they know of which they speak.

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Hi, yourbuddy!

<snip>

This is simply advertising using email, just like advertising that

uses Radio, TV, print media, etc. It doesn't need the recipients

prior approval (how would you get that, without contacting?).

<snip>

...Sorry, I don't agree. I turn on the radio or TV or buy print media, thus receiving the advertising. My choice, not the advertisers'.

We are (at least I am) talking business to business first contact email (not a permanent spam list), with a legitimate unsubscribe.

We are not (at least I am not) talking about a spam operation. Who cares about your personal demographics and your income!

...Please be sure that I am not on your "business to business first contact email" list, unless I have previously done business with you that I initiated. Anything else will be reported as spam.

You can always make a point, if you refuse to see the point. Read the Spamhaus definition of spam, they know of which they speak.

...The SpamHaus, or anyone else's, definition of spam means nothing to me. To me, spam is any unsolicited, unwanted e-mail. You are entitled to your opinion in terms of managing your e-mail, SpamHaus is entitled to its, and I believe I am entitled to mine. :D

Edited by turetzsr

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