Another strange thing webmail is doing

[MyNameHere]

Okay, today, this is happening:

1) I'm in a folder (such as Inbox).

2) I go to another folder (such as my Trash).

3) First thing I do is delete something.

Lo, I am suddenly looking at the previous folder again (i.e., Inbox).

This happens no matter which pair of folders I pick. After deleting, I end up back at the folder I just left.

I'll bet this is related to the other problem - that submitting held spam causes the page to switch back to Inbox (and then the submission returns an error).

[StevenUnderwood]

Just want to post that I have seen the same thing in the past. Working fine for me now, however.

:angry: How I hate intermittent problems.

[MyNameHere]

I hate to belabor this, but today it's doing it again.

I now have this symptom:

1. I go from one of my folders (XYZ) back to Inbox.

2. I delete an email from Inbox.

3. The system displays folder XYZ.

4. I go back to Inbox. The email I deleted is still there.

5. I try to display the email I deleted.

6. The system displays folder XYZ along with "There was an error viewing the requested message".

I can repeat this merry-go-round as often as I like.

Just to be sure, I checked Trash, and it's not showing up there, either.

I suspect these symptoms are all related to the same underlying problem. I figure if we document what's happening, and someone eventually tries to fix it, they'll have a better shot.

[silentlarry]

I see this intermittently too.

I have found it is sure to happen if I open mutilple windows (i.e. mozilla tabs) of folders, that really confuses the thing. I assume the app is dependant on only one folder being accessed at a time. Which is fine with me, now that I know about it.

But yes, I occasionally run into it even when I haven't been doing funny tricks with multiple windows/tabs. I get that maybe once a week. I use webmail like 5 days a week.

SL

P.S.

Could this be a browser cache issue?

Like, you go back to a previously viewed folder, but the browser is using the cache instead of reloading? So the app doesn't know you've changed folders perhaps?

Might want to check the browser cache setting.

[MyNameHere]

P.S.

Could this be a browser cache issue?

Like, you go back to a previously viewed folder, but the browser is using the cache instead of reloading? So the app doesn't know you've changed folders perhaps?

Might want to check the browser cache setting.

Thanks for the thought.

I suppose it could, and I suppose I could try different settings and if it turned out to be the case, I suppose we could all change our settings to accommodate the server.

But I have built web apps like this, and if they're doing it right they will have headers that cause the page to expire immediately (forcing reload every time you hit it). I haven't checked to see, 'cause I really don't care. The people writing the app have the responsibility to ensure that it works correctly -- or at a minimum, to announce clearly what the browser settings should be.

[MyNameHere]

Hi, I'm just adding this because it could be a timing issue.

Anyway, it happened again, around 12:55 ET.

I logged out, closed the browser, then got back on. Now it all seems to work fine.

New hypothesis to check out: Does this happen to folks logged in during an update to the website?

New information: the problem is definitely related to this other problem, because this time I was in the Inbox, identified a spam for submission, and ended up thrown back to the previous folder I had looked at.

So, the new description of the problem is, you do something that involves deleting an e-mail (such as Delete or Report as spam), and the system throws you back to the previously viewed folder and does not actually delete the e-mail.

(Haven't tried it, but I wonder if it does the same thing with Move...?)

[creechal]

Yesterday I finally got fed up with this intermittant problem of clicking on a message in one folder (or trying to delete it) and getting re-directed to the previously visited folder and given an error message. I checked the discussion board and found a suggestion from someone that it had to do with calling up cached pages rather than live pages, so I tested this theory by setting my browser cache to 0 KB and clearing out what was there. Sure enough, everything went smoothly for a while, and then there was the error again.

Are there any plans by SpamCop to correct this problem soon? Does anyone have any other suggestions of things I could do to keep this from happening?

Any help would be appreciated. I really like the webmail interface and having web-based email fits my lifestyle very well. I don't want to switch to some other service -- I just want SC webmail to work like it's supposed to.

[Jeff G.]

This certainly sounds like a bug which deserves more attention. I almost never delete anything using Webmail, so I haven't seen it in action.

[StevenUnderwood]

I use webmail everyday (to report my spam and scan my incoming messages until I can download them at home) and rarely have this happen any more. It was common (2-3 times in a day) before the hardware upgrade a while (6 months?) ago. I think it happened to me one time this last week but it only happens to me when I am trying to report my Held Mail messages and I get bumped back to my Inbox. No lost data, no error messages (only the standard message that it submitted 10 messages for reporting and moved 10 messages to trash even though that did not happen).

I have seen here where you reported data loss due to this problem. Have you contacted JT directly (support<at>spamcop.net) with the details?

[MyNameHere]

Well, it has happened off and on for me, I can't say how often because I came to ignore it.

But last week it was happening a couple of times a day, minimum. So when I checked out Jeff's new FAQ, I found that I could, indeed, cause it to purge deleted messages from the wrong folder.

No, I haven't mentioned this directly to JT, but I guess I will...

[MyNameHere]

I'm just adding a comment here because this thread discusses the problem and has a link to another thread that also does. In addition, the problem appears to be related to this FAQ.

Just because I'm that way, I have kept a log of all the times it has happened to me in the 6 months January-June, 2005.

It has happened in the following circumstances:

Attempting to open a message -> "There was an error viewing the requested message" -> different folder

Deleting messages -> different folder (messages not deleted in original folder) (note: this also includes such things as marking a message, any action that involves selecting a message and then acting on it)

Purging messages -> different folder (messages not purged in original folder, but are purged in different folder)

Reporting spam -> different folder (the spam is not reported nor deleted, despite the messages indicating it was)

The actual log is shown below. I'm pretty much checking my mail every day, sometimes as often as 20 or more times a day, so you can see it isn't exactly rampant. But it's rather persistent, and it can lead to data loss (as seen in the FAQ discussion). I'm not sure how diligent I was in January, but since then I'm pretty sure I've recorded them all.

2005-01-05 12:10

2005-01-09 19:32

2005-02-03 22:08

2005-02-03 22:09

2005-02-07 22:56

2005-02-08 20:01

2005-02-08 20:02

2005-02-14 08:40

2005-02-23 13:12

2005-02-28 17:58

2005-03-04 22:45

2005-03-07 09:19

2005-03-09 08:35

2005-03-09 21:25

2005-03-14 21:03

2005-03-14 21:04

2005-03-14 21:05

2005-03-15 09:01

2005-03-15 16:30

2005-03-16 13:16

2005-03-16 13:38

2005-03-17 12:38

2005-03-22 16:31

2005-03-29 17:06

2005-03-31 05:48

2005-04-06 09:42

2005-04-06 09:43

2005-04-18 15:39

2005-04-20 07:00

2005-04-20 23:39

2005-04-23 07:34

2005-04-23 16:22

2005-04-28 09:07

2005-04-28 09:09

2005-04-28 20:00

2005-04-28 20:01

2005-05-02 11:35

2005-05-02 22:53

2005-05-03 10:48

2005-05-04 08:45

2005-05-06 08:19

2005-05-07 15:03

2005-05-07 15:09

2005-05-11 08:51

2005-05-17 09:57

2005-05-19 12:38

2005-05-27 09:59

2005-05-31 19:41

2005-06-02 12:00

2005-06-08 09:05

2005-06-10 09:14

2005-06-15 11:10

2005-06-15 11:11

2005-06-16 13:17

2005-06-17 12:26

2005-06-20 11:16

2005-06-23 10:03

2005-06-23 13:08

2005-06-23 14:31

2005-06-27 12:34

2005-06-27 15:57

2005-06-28 15:59

2005-06-29 10:03

2005-06-30 20:39

I'll forward a link to this post to JT in case he's interested.

[MyNameHere]

Recently, (in the past week or so), this problem has been cropping up regularly -- and I mean multiple times every day!

I became so annoyed with this problem (Webmail losing its place and applying the current command to a different folder), that I decided to go back to using the Trash folder. I figured I wouldn't have any more problems with purging the wrong folder.

Well, technically, that is true, but there is yet another problem, not fatal, but capable of inducing cardiac arrhythmia:

When you click on the "Empty Trash folder" link, you can end up emptying your Inbox or any other folder Webmail decides to send you to.

It just happened to me, and luckily my entire Inbox just ended up in the Trash folder, so I can recover it.

Clearly, the only "safe" way to empty the Trash folder is to select all the messages and use the "Delete" link (then, if you end up in another folder, nothing will be checked and so nothing will be deleted).

This has gotten to the point that I have to consider whether to continue using the Spamcop webmail system at all, if I risk losing my e-mail. So far, I haven't lost anything, but the fear looms large...

[Wazoo]

Have you checked the support forums for IMP/Horde? Wondering if this is an IMP issue itself or not.

[StevenUnderwood]

Recently, (in the past week or so), this problem has been cropping up regularly -- and I mean multiple times every day!

I became so annoyed with this problem (Webmail losing its place and applying the current command to a different folder)

32715[/snapback]

And again, I use webmail every day and have not experienced this issue AT ALL. I have had the page return to a previous page, but NO ACTION is taken when it does. And it has only done that twice in the last month or so.

When you click on the "Empty Trash folder" link, you can end up emptying your Inbox or any other folder Webmail decides to send you to.

32715[/snapback]

Well, I never click on Empty trash as I have the system set to purge trash older than 3 days. However, mine has always gone back to the folder I was working on just prior to switching to the new folder and ONLY errors on the first process carried out in that folder. i.e. I switch from Inbox to Held Mail, select all, the click Forward (to submit my spam for full reporting). The new window opens up (with no attachments) and the main window returnd to Inbox. However, if I refresh the view (open Held mail a second time), I have never had the problem occur. Alsmost seems like a cache problem, but is so intermittent, it is impossible to watch happen.

[MyNameHere]

Well, I never click on Empty trash as I have the system set to purge trash older than 3 days.

32753[/snapback]

Steven, I appreciate your incredulity, but I want you to explain how my entire Inbox ended up in the Trash.

I was looking at the Trash folder. I clicked on Empty Trash folder. The next thing that displayed was my Inbox, which was empty.

I went back to the Trash folder and found all my Inbox messages along with the 6 or 7 that had been there before I tried to empty it.

The likelihood of any of these things (purging, emptying, whatever) happening at the same time as a pointer glitch is relatively low, because the frequency of folder glitches is fairly low, and the two things have to happen on the same postback.

However, it does happen. Any action request (link) is a candidate. Most of them are harmless (fortunately).

[Wazoo]

Tell you what ... I've asked a question or two .. no response. I've read this discussion, the FAQ entry on possible data loss, a few others ... I've yet to stumble across some of the backgound data that may or may not offer some insight. I'm going to refer folks reading this, wanting to add further details, to please see item #2 in http://forum.spamcop.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=3516 ... as said, maybe no help, maybe some help, but let's get some data points factored in.

[StevenUnderwood]

Steven, I appreciate your incredulity, but I want you to explain how my entire Inbox ended up in the Trash.

32762[/snapback]

The quote you posted was just saying there is little reason to use the Empty Trash folder as the system can be setup to automatically purge after a specified amount of time.

I am not saying you are not experiencing the problems you describe. My main point is that YOU are the only person I can find complaining about this specific problem of the action you are performing being performed on a different folder. Every other incident I can find is more along what I have experienced where nothing is performed and a different folder is displayed. Until there is more than one person complaining about something, the problem generally lies closer to that end of the system.

Have you described your OS and web browser names and versions so that others can try to replicate your problems?

Have you tried sending that kind of information along with approximate times of these incidents to JT so he can check his server logs for what he is seeing?

[Wazoo]

news://news.gmane.org/gmane.comp.horde.bugs

or

http://bugs.horde.org/search.php

Massive quantities of stuff ... is your issue there? I got tired of looking ....

[MyNameHere]

Steven and Wazoo, I really appreciate your efforts.

I am going to continue the discussion here rather than in the FAQ thread. Y'all can clean up the FAQ as you like. I've been trying to use this thread to keep all the information related to the "problem."

If you look at my post of July 13, you will see a list of the situations I have observed (I don't mean the list of dates and times, I mean the descriptions at the beginning of the post). The problem with the Empty Trash folder link, in my opinion, is just another example of the same problem, which I had not seen before because I hadn't been using the Trash folder at all until yesterday.

Steven, I quoted what I did because I wanted you to know I understand that you would not have an opportunity to experience what I have experienced, if you don't empty your trash.

However, I take issue with your statement that I am the only one who has ever reported data loss. The FAQ thread itself was about data loss that Jeff G experienced. That's why I posted there, too. You can argue that he's talking about a different phenomenon, but I think it's the same underlying issue.

The probabilities of data loss are low. In the FAQ thread, the OP was about data loss using the Purge link. Mine was about data loss using the Empty Trash folder link. Fact is, if Horde really is losing its place among the folders, these are about the only two things that could cause a problem. Given that they're rarely used and the underlying problem itself is rare, it's not surprising that very few reports of it have surfaced.

As for my configurations... I have experienced the problem on all 3 of the systems I use. System #1 is Windows XP SP1 running IE6.0.2800 through Norton Personal Firewall 2005 and a DSL line. System #2 is Windows 2000 SP4 running IE6.0.2800 through Norton Personal Firewall 2005 and a DSL line. System #3 is Windows XP SP1 running IE6.0.2800 through a corporate firewall and corporate gateway.

Wazoo, I apologize for not responding to your posts. Also, I didn't know where the vendor's bug lists were. I looked through your two links (it appears they are essentially mirrors of each other). I found the following:

http://bugs.horde.org/ticket/?id=1563 and http://bugs.horde.org/ticket/?id=529 appear to have some relationship to my observations, but they don't address the problem comprehensively. They indicate the problems were fixed in IMP 4.0.3 or IMP 4.x, respectively. Because I don't know what version Spamcop is using, I have no idea if the fixes have been applied to Spamcop's webmail.

You're right, there's a lot of stuff in those bug lists.

Steven, to address another point you made (that it might be a cache problem), I think the META refresh tag takes care of that, even if you use the Back button.

Yet another point... that when it burps, it always goes back to the last folder you viewed... well, I'd say it does 99% of the time, but I have seen it go to a random folder at least once when I first displayed the Inbox and took some action (i.e., I hadn't viewed any other folders yet).

One more thing that I mentioned when I e-mailed Support about this today. When viewing the Held Mail folder, I've noticed that sometimes the Inbox button at the top of the screen is "depressed" and sometimes the Held Mail button is depressed. If I navigate from any folder to Held Mail using the Held Mail button, then that button remains depressed while I'm viewing it. If I navigate to Held Mail using the folder dropdown list or the Folder Navigator, the Inbox button is depressed. If I'm looking at Held Mail and the Held Mail button is depressed, and I view a message and click on Back to Held Mail, then the Inbox button is depressed.

I think you could verify that yourself, even though it might not mean anything. I'm grasping at straws here, but it seems odd that the system doesn't know which button applies to the folder I'm viewing...

[Jeff G.]

One more thing that I mentioned when I e-mailed Support about this today. When viewing the Held Mail folder, I've noticed that sometimes the Inbox button at the top of the screen is "depressed" and sometimes the Held Mail button is depressed. If I navigate from any folder to Held Mail using the Held Mail button, then that button remains depressed while I'm viewing it. If I navigate to Held Mail using the folder dropdown list or the Folder Navigator, the Inbox button is depressed. If I'm looking at Held Mail and the Held Mail button is depressed, and I view a message and click on Back to Held Mail, then the Inbox button is depressed.

32772[/snapback]

I think this is a separate display bug. The whole "Held Mail" "Radio Button"/mailbox/Folder appears to be a SpamCop Email System specific hack by JT with a somewhat incomplete implementation for the "Radio Button" artifice. I write "Radio Button" because these Buttons act like the mechanical Buttons on old car radios: they acted as multi-position switches; only one could be pushed at a time; pushing of one released any other that had been previously pushed; and when pushed they looked like they had been pushed. As I understand it, if you push the "Held Mail" Radio Button, it stays pushed while you display its mailbox/Folder, but display of any other mailbox/Folder is just another mailbox/Folder under "INBOX" in the Courier hierarchy, so "INBOX" is pushed. When you treat "Held Mail" as just another mailbox/Folder (using the "Folders" Radio Button or the drop-down list of mailboxes/Folders) so does the display of the Radio Buttons.

[dbiel]

Link to the related FAQ entry FAQ Entry: Webmail: Deleting and Moving Messages

Entry made to tie the two topics together.

Note: this link does appear previously such as in post#11, but for those who have gotten this far, I thought that an additional link back to it might be helpful.

[jchauncey@spamcop.net]

I have seen this a number of times. Very annoying.