Multiple accounts

[knighthawk3344]

I want to set up multiple accounts, the ones where I buy fuel for each account. These account will be used for people who want to report spam. They will send any spam has attachment to any of these accounts, and I will Log into the spamcop account and finish off reporting the spam. This way the people who have forwarded the spam to one of these account have sent it, to report it has spam. One of the main reason for doing this is. Many people don't want to set up spamcop accounts, or don't want to Pay for setting up accounts. or can't be bothered to set up a account. This way, they don't need to do this, it's all done for them. all they need to do is send the message has spam, and I will do the rest for them. I understand this will take time and money, but at the end of the day, these messages that are reported, would not normally be reported. The more reports that are sent, the better, this will help in shutting down these infected computers, which are being used for sending spam, or being used for some other purpose. I was wondering if this is possible to do, can I do this through spamcop. At the end of the day, I won't be doing the reporting, the people will, they are the one's who will decide if it's spam or not, I understand there could be a possiblility of abuse to this service, so the addresses for reporting the spam, will not be put up for everyone to see, they will have to go through some kind of security to get access to the spam reporting address, possibly through Paypal, Like some kind of donation $1, just to confirm who they are. this could be used for setting up more addresses for sending more spam reports. J

[dbiel]

This is not a very good idea and I believe is also against the rules. There is nothing wrong with you helping people set up their own accounts and tutoring them. Today there is very little difference between an account with fuel and a totally free acount. So oneone should have any money concerns. As far as multiple reporting accounts, there is nothing in the rules that prevents that. Only the forum has the rule against multiple forum accounts.

[DavidT]

This topic appears to be in the wrong forum. IIUC, the OP is talking about Reporting accounts, not SC Email Accounts. Mods, please move this.

DT

[Wazoo]

Agreed ... I see nothing about SpamCop.net e-mail accounts here, just Reporting accounts. Moved to that Forum section with this post.

[cppgenius]

It is an interesting point the poster is trying to make here. Knighthawk, if I'm reading this right, you want to set up reporting accounts for a couple of friends, for example. They do not need to finish of the reports, they only need to report the spam and you will do the rest. What you are trying to do is to make the process more comfortable for people who are willing to report spam, but who do not want to go through the trouble of finalising the reports.

I do not see any harm in this, one should actually thank someone like this for the willingness to manage several reporting accounts on behalf of other people who are too lazy to report spam properly. This could actually encourage more people to report spam, who did not bother to report spam in the past.

dbiel, you say that you believe that this is against the rules, but at the same time you state that there is noting in the rules that prevent someone from having multiple reporting accounts (sorry I'm not completely following you there, or am I perhaps missing something).

A forum account and the spamcop reporting account are two separate accounts, right? Or are the two connected to each other (in other words are a reporting account dependant on the existence of a forum account and vice versa)?

[Farelf]

...dbiel, you say that you believe that this is against the rules, but at the same time you state that there is noting in the rules that prevent someone from having multiple reporting accounts (sorry I'm not completely following you there, or am I perhaps missing something).

Reporters effectively certify that what they are reporting is actual, unaltered spam they received. Any proposed variation which might undermine the "chain of evidence" (a melodramatic way of putting it, but I find it convenient) should be checked with the Deputies.

.A forum account and the spamcop reporting account are two separate accounts, right? Or are the two connected to each other (in other words are a reporting account dependant on the existence of a forum account and vice versa)?

Forum membership and reporting accounts are completely independent. Heck, we've even had spammers sign up on the forum (and many, many more would each day, were it not for our tireless forum admin).

[turetzsr]

<snip>

dbiel, you say that you believe that this is against the rules, but at the same time you state that there is noting in the rules that prevent someone from having multiple reporting accounts (sorry I'm not completely following you there, or am I perhaps missing something).

...Hmm, dbiel does seem to be somewhat less than crystal clear about the rules. Going out on a limb and speaking for him (I'm hoping he'll correct me if I'm wrong), I think he may have been referring to the fact that it is against the rules to report someone else's spam (FAQ: On what type of email should I (not) use SpamCop? subtopic "spam within other messages") but I'm not sure whether this applies. The SpamCop Deputies (deputies[at]admin.spamcop.net) should be consulted for an authoritative answer as to whether what knighthawk3344 is proposing falls within or outside the rules).

A forum account and the spamcop reporting account are two separate accounts, right?

...Correct!

Or are the two connected to each other (in other words are a reporting account dependant on the existence of a forum account and vice versa)?

...No, there is no connection. I believe that dbiel was only saying that the SpamCop Forum rules limit to one the number of SpamCop Forum accounts that an individual may have; there is no limit to the number of SpamCop reporting accounts a user may have. I believe dbiel was just saying that it is not this rule that would be violated by knighthawk3344 doing as she/he proposes.

...IMHO, there appears to be the expectation that users will report their own spam and only their spam, that they will submit and complete (or cancel) the reporting of their spam and that other users should not be involved (except, perhaps, in a guiding or consulting role) in the submission, reading the results of the parse of, or submission of the complaints to the abuse addresses. One especially good reason that knighthawk3344 should not do what she/he proposes (again, IMHO) is that knighthawk3344 will not be able to tell as well as will the people receiving the actual spam whether or not 1) it actually is spam, as defined by the rules and 2) whether the proposed abuse addresses are the right ones (especially whether they may be the true spam receiver's provider).

[Wazoo]

A forum account and the spamcop reporting account are two separate accounts, right? Or are the two connected to each other (in other words are a reporting account dependant on the existence of a forum account and vice versa)?

Why are there so many different account names/passwords needed?

SpamCop Reporting Accounts

Persomal multiple Reporting accounts used here are;

Free Account - non-MailHost configured

Free Account - MailHost configured

E-mail associated Account

ISP Account (not actually a 'reporting' account, but associated with the Parsing & Reporting System)

Dealing with someone else's e-mail, spam, spam submittals, and possible ISP/Abuse-desk replies just sounds like lots of places and ways for something to go wrong.

[dbiel]

This is not a very good idea and I believe is also against the rules. There is nothing wrong with you helping people set up their own accounts and tutoring them. Today there is very little difference between an account with fuel and a totally free acount. So oneone should have any money concerns. As far as multiple reporting accounts, there is nothing in the rules that prevents that. Only the forum has the rule against multiple forum accounts.

dbiel, you say that you believe that this is against the rules, but at the same time you state that there is noting in the rules that prevent someone from having multiple reporting accounts (sorry I'm not completely following you there, or am I perhaps missing something).

cppgenius took what I worte totally out of context, but then, as I will have to agree with the statement, that I was "somewhat less than crystal clear". The reporting of someone else's spam is against the rules; but this is a very unique situtation, so the only what it know for sure is the ask the deputies. The other moderators did a better job of expaining the difference between a forum account and a reporting account. So I will leave it at that.

[Miss Betsy]

There is no particular value to reporting other people's spam for them. The value of reporting spam via spamcop is that the people who use the spamcop blocklist to either block or tag spam have less spam in their inboxes.

A very, very few spam reports go to server admins who have made a mistake and let some spam through and are glad to get the spamcop report so that they can fix it before they get on other lists.

Some people are altruistic and report spam even if they don't directly benefit partly because so many people do use the spamcop blocklist just as they pick up trash on a street where they don't live. Or for the benefit of the few who respond when they get a spamcop report.

Spamcop doesn't do a whole lot to combat infected computers. A better course of action to prevent spam from infected computers would be to offer to set up computers with proper security measures for new computer owners.

Miss Betsy

[knighthawk3344]

Thanks for all your comments, and all your replies, good to see there are so many different views on the matter. Sorry wazoo I put it in the wrong forum, Thanks for moving it for me. Yes, cppgenius that was my plan to set up multiple accounts, and do the reporting for them, but it looks like a no no now. I understand everyone's views, also I understand that is possible that spam could be reported, which some people say is not spam, but if I am Finishing off the reports, I think I know the difference between spam, and not spam. At the end of the day the reports will not be altered in anyway, the friends and family who I will be giving the addresses to, will be told, only report spam messages, that you have received, don't report spam messages, that you have received, where you signed upto something, if you are unsure, don't report it. My main reason for doing this was to help people, and make it more affective, Personally the more spam that is reported the more affect it will have, it's only a matter of time before the laws will be changed, and these Internet service providers will have no choice, but to take action. more and more people are now reporting spam, has time goes by, the list will get bigger, and this is when the Internet service providers will take action. Once this happens, these Infected computers will be taken down. Until this happens, we are fighting a losing battle. we can't just put the blame on the Internet service providers, we also have to blame the Internet users, who surf the Internet day by day, week by week, with no protection what so ever, some don't even Know what a firewall is. These people need to take responsibility for there own computers, they need to be fined, I am not talking about these people who have protection on there computers, I understand a hacker could get access, but at least they have some protection. At the end of the day it was a Idea, so now I will forget about it. J

[dbiel]

Before forgetting about it. We have not heard from anyone in authority. Have you contacted the deputies and get a reading from them? They are the only ones that can actually say yes or no to the idea. The rest of us have only given you what we think and issues as we see them. Good luck in you endeavours.

[SpamCopAdmin]

I want to set up multiple accounts

You only need one account to report all the spam you get your hands on. If you want to share your 'submit' address with others and report their spam for them, it's OK with us. You will be responsible for the spam you report regardless of who submits it.

Personally, I don't think it's a good idea to try to report other people's spam. If they want to report spam, they should sign up for a reporting account themselves.

- Don D'Minion - SpamCop Admin -

[dbiel]

Thanks for the reply Don

[SpamCopAdmin]

referring to the fact that it is against the rules to report someone else's spam (FAQ: On what type of email should I (not) use SpamCop? subtopic "spam within other messages")

That is about cutting the spam out of bounces. It's not about reporting other people's spam despite the fact that the wording might make it appear that way.

The reason we can't cut the spam out of bounces is because we can't verify the accuracy or completeness of the headers of the spam. It puts SpamCop at risk of being fooled by a forgery.

It's not against the rules to report other people's spam, but it's a bad idea.

- Don D'Minion - SpamCop Admin -

[Miss Betsy]

ISTM that one account would make a mailhosts configuration incredibly difficult and IMHO, mailhosts configuration is important. Reporters who are interested can make mistakes because of the volume. ISTM that it would be even more difficult for someone viewing second-hand spam to avoid making a mistake and almost guaranteed for someone who is reporting spam without any interest at all.

As I pointed out before, reporting spam via spamcop doesn't help much with the zombies which the OP was particularly concerned with. Those ISPs who care have ways to discover them without getting reports. If the OP is willing to spend that much time to combat spam, there are other, more productive ways. Lots of people achieve a lot by spending time on the phone and with snail mail. If the OP spent his time that way with his own spam, it would stop more spam than sending a lot of reports that will be ignored except by the spamcop blocklist. And since his 'reporters' won't be getting any benefit from that, it won't help them to see the value of reporting. I am not completely up to date on what different kinds of blocklists achieve, but I think that other blocklists do a better job of identifying zombies.

IMHO, the OP could use his time much better to combat spam by going in depth with his own spam and writing letters and making phone calls. Complaining to the registrars seems to work also. Another step with his own spam that many don't take the time for.

I agree with Don, it is a bad idea to report other people's spam.

Miss Betsy

[cppgenius]

There is no particular value to reporting other people's spam for them. The value of reporting spam via spamcop is that the people who use the spamcop blocklist to either block or tag spam have less spam in their inboxes.

Some people are altruistic and report spam even if they don't directly benefit partly because so many people do use the spamcop blocklist just as they pick up trash on a street where they don't live. Or for the benefit of the few who respond when they get a spamcop report.

Does this mean that everyone with a SpamCop account, who do not utilise the SpamCop blocklist, should stop reporting spam to SpamCop, because there is nothing in it for them, it's only a waste of time? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Those ISPs who care have ways to discover them without getting reports.

The problem is very few ISPs care and if ISPs were able to discover these infected bots, we would not have seen so many bot related spam now would we? ISPs are either unable to detect bot spam or they are turning their heads the other way. A lot of people will start complaining about having their Internet access accounts cancelled, if ISPs really cared and really took action against bot spam.

IMHO, the OP could use his time much better to combat spam by going in depth with his own spam and writing letters and making phone calls. Complaining to the registrars seems to work also. Another step with his own spam that many don't take the time for.

I agree, this is something you should consider knighthawk, to expand your methods of reporting spam. However it is not always possible in practice. Making several calls from the UK to the United States for instance can become quite expensive and snail mail to registrars in another country may easily get lost. (we all have problems with our national postal services).

This method obviously has its pros and cons:

Pros:

- people receive spam from different sources, with more people reporting spam, SpamCop can cover more areas where spam originates.

- people simply delete spam and forget about it. Encouraging more people to report spam develops a habit of taking action against these problems. It is an opportunity to turn normal Internet users into active spam reporters.

- ISPs who care can use all the help they can get, more spam reports can increase the response rate of ISPs to shut down the spam bot before it gets out of hand. This saves money and bandwidth.

- This is a great opportunity to make people comfortable with the spam reporting process of SpamCop. At some stage I do feel that you should encourage these reporters to create their own accounts to do the reporting themselves. Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.

Cons:

- An e-mail is a simple text file, in other words, even your most novice user can copy the source of the e-mail, paste it into notepad, forge the headers, save the file, import it into an e-mail client and forward it to the SpamCop reporting account. If you are going to report spam on behalf of other people you need to make 100% sure that you can trust them. If you report spam with forged headers you do not only risk loosing your SpamCop account, you also do harm to the reputation and good name of SpamCop.

- It is hard to determine whether an e-mail from a mailing list is really spam. I recently worked on a case where a certain well-known website did not honour the un-subscribe request of an individual because their system got screwed up and they did not take the necessary steps to remove this individual from the mailing list (on purpose I believe). The person reported this as spam while being fully aware of the fact that she opted in to receive these e-mails, because the newsletters became unsolicited the moment they refused to un-subscribe this person. Without these facts you will probably ignore such a report while the person who reported it had a solid reason why he/she reported it.

- You need to take responsibility for someone else's spam, if you report a non-spam e-mail, then you will have to face the consequences. What if I break the rule(s)?. If you cause some severe problems for SpamCop or any damage to their business model I'm sure harsher penalties will be issued, perhaps a lawsuit?

- It can become a time consuming process if you handle spam from several different e-mail accounts. And yes, the mailhost configuration will probably provide a couple of headaches.

So this is basically a good idea, with some inherent risks. knighthawk if you are willing to take these risks, then I take my hat of for being so determined to take on the spammers and your willingness to go through all these troubles. I wish you the best of luck!

[Miss Betsy]

Does this mean that everyone with a SpamCop account, who do not utilise the SpamCop blocklist, should stop reporting spam to SpamCop, because there is nothing in it for them, it's only a waste of time? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

People who report spam without utilizing the spamcop blocklist are being altruistic - doing it for others' benefit: both those who do use the scbl such as Mailwasher users or spamcop email users as well as numerous server admins and for the few reports that go to a server admin who is interested.

It is never a waste of time to report spam. However, timewise, it would probably be better to learn how to report in depth than to report other people's spam. In the Tools Forum, I believe it is, there is a tool that will report to registrars. Sometimes, a manual report gets more attention than a spamcop report. IOW, to use spamcop as a tool in the process rather than relying totally on one method.

And, as I said, in my first post, doing something to educate end users on proper security measures would be more beneficial, IMHO, than reporting spam via spamcop because spamcop does not really do well on the zombies. That's because when the spam stops, the bl listing drops off. Of course, after it starts up again, the listing revives. I think that there are blocklists whose only function is to identify zombies. And server admins will not block the mail servers of the ISPs who ignore the zombies because too many end users do not understand. They only block the IP addresses of the zombies which are usually not mail servers and so do not inconvenience anyone. (some more knowledgeable people will probably come along and correct me on the details, but I think that, in theory, I am right.)

Miss Betsy

[turetzsr]

Does this mean that everyone with a SpamCop account, who do not utilise the SpamCop blocklist, should stop reporting spam to SpamCop, because there is nothing in it for them, it's only a waste of time?

<snip>

People who report spam without utilizing the spamcop blocklist are being altruistic

<snip>

...Miss Betsy, what did I do to you to deserve such a slur! <g> I can't speak for others who do this but I do not do it for altruistic reasons. I do it for the same reason I would report a burglary or murder even if I believe the authorities will do nothing about my individual case -- because we (including me) are all better off if light is shed on the existence of evil.

<snip>

Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.

<snip>

...One of my three favorite quotes! <g>

...Slightly off-topic: great post, cppgenius! Seems to me you understand SpamCop (from the perspective of a user) very, very well!

[Miss Betsy]

I thought after I had sent that post that I left a third altruistic reason out (though I mentioned it earlier) - in addition to helping those who use the scbl and the server admins who are interested in possible leaks in their systems, reporting spam contributes to the general anti-spam action. The results are definitely long term, but hopeful.

Reporting 'evil' is altruistic if it doesn't directly protect you. altruism: the doctrine that the general welfare of society is the proper goal of an individual's actions.

My point is that, in order to combat zombies and botnets, it is better strategy to combat the root of the evil than to report other people's spam for them. Or to learn other reporting sources that directly attack the source of zombies and botnets. In the first alternative, the part of the definition of altruism about 'individuals' is the basis. Better to teach people how not to get infected or persuade them that it is important to take time to report. You can't be altruistic for someone else. And, in the second alternative, if one person had the time or will to do in depth reporting, it would be much more effective than dozens of spam reports.

I am not saying that an individual should not report spam unless he gains a definite advantage from doing so. I am saying that you can be more effective either persuading people to report spam themselves because by doing so, they have to understand why it is effective and will be better consumers and protect themselves better or by learning to do in-depth reporting which is much more effective than reporting hundreds more spam that is mostly going to feed the scbl - which is useful, but not for the reasons the OP stated he wanted to report other people's spam.

Miss Betsy

[turetzsr]

...Response (off-topic to this discussion) at Reporting spam = Altruism?, Branch of Topic "Multiple accounts".