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Craig

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Everything posted by Craig

  1. Craig

    How long will mail stay in trash?

    Spamcop personnel, how many? Oh, I have no idea. What, five people maybe? Why do you ask? Is there some implication I'm missing here? I'm not blaming JeffG for anything? Why, does it appear that I am? I know he's a volunteer, and give him appreciation for that. What's your point? That the user is at fault for getting spammed? Or are you tryign to say somethign else? Look, I don't know what motivates you here, but I'm just looking for answers to solve problems, and trying to participate constructively. Here, go read this if you want a description of the problem with clearing stuffed spamcop mailboxes: Folder Level Delete Malfing???, Emptying from Folder Navigator No Worky Which started from an earlier topic, here: Selecting and deleting multple held emails If after reading those you are still confused as to the meaning of my posting,, I'll be sorry, but I don't know what more I can do.
  2. I'm with Betsy. Travelling overseas for quite awhile, I didn't check the newsgroups for quite some time, and when I returned to home base and had a spamcop problem, I figured I'd go to the newsgroups the way I usually do, by launching my NNTP client by clicking on the Help links on the old spamcop home page. I was surprised when I arrived at this forum instead of the newsgroups. Now I see the newsgroup links buried below the fold on the home page, with not much in the way of clear headers indicating why one would go to them instead of here. It would be nice if some clearer headings and explanatory text could be provided on the home page. I had no idea that this web forum was only for newbie questions. It jsut looked like the newsgroups were being dumped.
  3. Craig

    How long will mail stay in trash?

    gah, when I was trying to clear out my friend's stuffed with thousands of messages Held Mail and Trash, just deleting with the webmail client was impossible. I was rending my rainments I tell ya! Reporting wasn't even on my hitlist at that point. And finally fixing it using local IMAP client and a fast connection was still a struggle. This is a systems problem, not a user problem. I am very appreciative of your help here Jeff, but I'd like to hear from spamcop personnel that this is a known issue and that some fix is on the way. I don't understand how I can recommend spamcop subscriptions to my own clients when things are this way. I've already taken flack from my friends. "I have thousands of messages and spamcop won't even open", etc. bleh. Gah, the embarrassment!
  4. Craig

    How long will mail stay in trash?

    Listen to mr. JefG! Do NOT allow your SpamCop Webmail Trash and/or Held Mail message numbers to reach into the five figures. It took me hours and hours to clean out a friend's account here that got like that.
  5. Craig

    Selecting and deleting multple held emails

    Hmmm, I don't get how your ISP would get BL'd if you reported false positive messages from this bbs. I mean, the mail is from here, not from your ISP...I say, hmmm. But, never mind, soldier It's enough that we are finding our own best ways to work with the SpamCop weapons. Uh, I mean 'tools', heh heh. If you find the 100 attack point works for you, great. Sometimes when I really get into it I can up the numbers, waay up. But for normal practice, I'm conservative. Too easy to shoot the piano player. Anyway, I think I'll go report some spam now!
  6. Craig

    yourbuddy trolling 3

    You know, I'm not going to pretend to be conversant with the letter of the RFC's. But, "end user anecdotally" speaking, if a server is spewing thousands of virus bounces to wrong addresses, that's bulk and unsolicited. And it remains a problem that cannot be defined away. It may be possible to deal with programmatically. Or, at least, I suggest that it may be. Your contention, yourbuddy, seems to be that if we define it away as a non-problem then we don't have to deal with it, right? I'm sure that can't be your intention, since we're still inundated with the stuff after we've neatly defined it as non-spam. Got an RFC for fixing this? Anybody? Seriously, if there is perhaps it would inform the search for a solution.
  7. Craig

    Selecting and deleting multple held emails

    Scott, if you are that confident then you might as well go for it. But I figure that given the sheer volume of reporting that is probably going on, it's not inconceivable for multiple reporters to make a false report within a few days of each other, expecially if they are reporting thousands at a time. All the more likely for major hosting providers, since their message numbers are high. Mailing list messages and ecommerce acknowledgement messages are also usual false positives in my experience, btw. For me, unless SpamCop deputies come out and tell me in clear language that I can be confident that there will be no false positives in the auto-filtered Held Mail, I'll continue to max out my mass reporting at 100 messages or so, after scanning the headers and removing possible false positives from the batch. If if been offline for a few days and there are hundreds and hundreds in there, I usually just report a hundred or so of the most recent, and delete the rest. If I'm online the numbers are much less, since I'll do a reporting round once or twice a day, "morning and night"; in that case, I can usually scan and report all the Held Mail. And, yes, the false positives are rare, but not nonexistant; see above.
  8. Virus bounce notifications that are sent to the the unfortunate owner of a forged email address are themselves spam. The owner of the forged address never sent the original infected message, and thus the bounce message sent to them is false. It is thus just more spam. And, unless the bouncing server removes the full quoted original message headers, we the end users are told that it is a trivial manual process to reveal that the original sending IP does not match the forged address domain, our own addresses. Yes, it's trivial for one message, but for large numbers of them, it is a major task. How can anyone expect us to deal with contacting the bounce server postmasters ourselves when there are large numbers of these? And, you better believe that there are plenty. We get as many of these bogus bounces as we do other forms of spam. It seems obvious to me that the bouncing server must be constructed or configured to bounce the infected message to the contact address of the original message IP, and to leave the owner of the forged address out of the message stream. Whether this is practical or not using currently available server software, I do not know. However, if it is not, then allowing the server to bounce to whatever user[at]domain email address is used in the original message is unacceptable, as the vast majority of the bounces go to the wrong address - this technique is flooding the internet with these bogus messages, and there is no practical way for the end user to deal with it themselves, for the reasons sited below. Asking end users to just delete bogus bounces is also not an acceptable solution. It's a fact that by the time large numbers of these bogus messages have accrued in the victim's In box, by that time they've already been victimized, and dealing with large numbers of these themselves if not practical, if not impossible: For example, if a user does not check their email for a few days and then faces difficulty even downloading headers/messages because their mail service mail spools are so full that timeouts or other failures ensue, even deletion becomes a major task. For an account of this sort of difficulty, read my winging on this right here on this very conferencing system: Folder Level Delete Malfing???.... Important valid messages are far more likely to be missed, as their presense is obscured since they are buried amidst large numbers of the bogus bounce messages. The bogus bounce messages frequently do not contain the full headers of the original message. If we cannot see the originating IP, how can we track down the actual spammer to report them? That info was removed by the bouncing server, where it should have been dealt with in the first place. Asking end users to personally reply themselves to the bogus bouncing server postmaster is also impractical. As mentioned at the beginning of this posting, there are simply too many of these for the average end user reply to. So, what to do? First , end users need some kind of programmatic way to either participating in fighting the problem, or they need to be protected from it upstream. That service would be best achieved by properly constructed or configured mail servers, just as mail servers in general should be properly configured to block spammer access through open relays, etc. Or, second, SpamCop and similar services should attempt to catch virus bounce messages and perform the To-address-domain/actual-source-IP-domain comparison and validation. Only validated bounces would be sent forward to the subscriber mailbox. Alert or warning messages might also be sent to the bogus bouncing server owners. But most certainly the bogus bounces would not be continued to the end user / subscriber In box. If for some reason SpamCop feels an obligation to notify the subscriber of receipt of these bogus messages, they should be treated as spam, which they are, and filtered into Held Mail. This problem is in fact just another version of the same spam issue that has been plaguing is all. The bogus bounces are spam, and I'd like to see SPAMCop helping us deal with them. I'd be willing to pay more for the service. What choice do I have?
  9. Yes, that is my understanding of how it works. And it does seem to be working now that I have the numbers of files in SpamCop mail folders for the account in question down to reasonable numbers. Of course, the larger issues of dealing with crammed SpamCop Mail folders remain. Anyway, thanks for taking time to post the info.
  10. Oh, uh, by the way, my apologies for the extreme verbosity. It's always hard to keep it brief, but also supply all the problem symptoms. And, fwiw, I've always gotten good email support here. I don't use it often, because I understand the resource realities, but when I have the responses have been pretty good. Thanks to JeffT, who was always the fielder.
  11. Yes, and I usually keep it configured to download headers only. But, iirc, deleting the headers only just causes some flag to switch on the 'deleted' messages, it seems. They don't go away. If you go into the SpamCop webmail, they're still there, but shown as 'deleted' with a strikeout line through each header. Getting them out of their folder sometimes can be done by selecting and moving them to trash, where sometimes they can be finally deleted. I repeat 'sometimes' because sometimes it does not work. The whole process requires multiple extraneous steps, and it makes more sense to either a) complete the full msg download to the local client and delete there, or open the webmail and bang on them there. I havn't tried to do the local delete of headers only in awhile, since the initial trial results were not helpful. Perhaps it works now. fwiw, it does work normally for me to move mail between server folders by draging the headers. Don't know if it would work with a bloated box though.. Boy howdy. However, the interaction is not between the local client and the host, but rather between SpamCop servers, isn't it? Why should it time out after ten minutes? Anyway, I FINALLY managed to really get rid of the thousands of Held and Trash folder messages in this guy's account. When I left it last night (this morning), there were tons of those damn strikeout messages. Not one of the deleted from Trash messages disappeared. I finally left it and went off on a bleary eyed day to do other things. Now, about ten ours later, I logged into his account again, and almost fell to my knees in gratitude to see that the Trash folder was empty and Held Mail folder had only some new spam. [winge]This was a frustrating experience, and now I understand why this friend of mine keep complaining that he just could not get rid of SpamCop Mail Trash and Held Mail. [/winge] He is inordinately cursed with far more bogus virii bounce mail and other spam. Thousands a day sometimes. A large amount of it gets through to his In box, even though we've lowered his spam Assassin threshold. Last night I added the sbl.spamhaus.org black list to his config, so now he's got at 4, and bl.spamcop.net/sbl.spamhaus.org blacklists working. STILL, when I logged in ten hours after setting the extra blacklist, there were something like ten real spams in his In box, not to mention the annoying bogus virus bounces. So, The 14 day Held Mail autodelete doesn't seem to work, as I found stuff in there 17 days old. The inconsistant results on attempting Trash emptying, and the failures in deleting Held Mail are both real issues. There seems to be no practical way to deal with bloated Held Mail or Trash mailboxes. And given the volume of spam/crap this guy's getting, he needs one. It would be tremendously gratifying if someone on the SpamCop team would verify that this is a bug, and tell us that there's a resolution on the way. I also sometimes travel, and cannot log in to webmail every day just to clear Held Mail. If I had the volume of spam that my friend gets, and the same results with resolution attempts, I would have flipped, probably. So, any help from SpamCop personnel on this one will be greatly appreciated!
  12. Yes, in fact I just spend a couple of hours doing this. Not with OE but with Eudora on this machine. Normally, for my own spamcop mail account use IMAP on Eudora and it works great, alternating between Eudora and the webmail to do the reporting. But, for this friend's account, after spending TIME downloading and deleting around 10,000 trash folder messages alone, they are still there! I finally managed to empty his Held Messages folder. That only took a couple of hours. If I can just clear out his Trash, it will be good. What's going to happen next time he goes away for a few days and the system won't let him delete another ten thousand held messages, well I dunno.
  13. Craig

    Selecting and deleting multple held emails

    Yes, I can see how this would confuse users, telling them simultaneously that it is OK to quick-report bulk masses of Held Mail as spam, and also telling them that they should scan the Held Mail to make sure they are not making bogus reports. That is why you shouldn't tell them to make blind mass reports. If you read the complaints by sysadmins out there who've had their systems black holed by spamcop, the stories of their long drawn out communication loops THEY go through trying to get their systems un-blocked, they you may feel a bit more that we must be responsible in using the reporting tool here. All of those masses of messages you reported, in which you say there were no falsely Held messages, well, perhaps there were a few in there. Can you really say there were not if you quickly scanned and reported A THOUSAND of them? I know I still find falsely Held messages. It's fairly rare, which is ironically annoying, but it happens. fwiw, I too have been using spamcop for quite some time, and have done my share of reporting. so it's not like I'm a newbie here. I can scan a hundred Held messages and report'em pretty darn quickly, and then do it again and again. But, although it is tempting to do the same to 1000, I don't, because I know that the likelihood of false reporting is that much more, and that would be irresponsible. False reporting can have and does have very real, material negative consequences out there.
  14. Yep, I have. Usually we just get an error message saying something like IMAP connection broken (server response) This is after a long delay, I since, I guess, there are many messages to process. But, if you cannot manually empty a hugely stuffed trash folder, what else can a user do? Here's a usual result of trying to empty the Held Mail folder: 166 messages have been reported as spam to SpamCop. There was an error deleting messages from the folder "Held Mail". This is what the server said: [CLOSED] IMAP connection broken (server response) 166 message(s) have been deleted. Then, open the Held Mail folder, and the messages are still there. What makes this even more frustrating is that it is not consistant; if I bang on it by going back again and again, selecting all and deleting, sometimes it seems to work. Yes, many many times. Sometimes the result is even more entertaining, the system returns a 'Trash emptied' message, and then the New/Total folder nav totals read 0/nothing! Yes, the right column total is just empty. Then, refresh the Folder Nav page, and the original pre-emptying totals are there again!!! Let me repeat this, I empty the folder, and the messages do not go away! This is, like, most user unfriendly. This account, my buddy who I'm helping here, is getting tons of spam, and TONS of bogus trojan bounces. If he goes away for two days, he's got thousands. With the system reluctant to delete, it's become very difficult for him. Of course, as the one who recommended spamcop, it's not making me very happy either.. HALP!!!
  15. Craig

    Selecting and deleting multple held emails

    Wolfgang, the person who posted that answer to Matisse is just another user like us, not a SpamCop employee, I believe. See: link to answer you reference.
  16. Craig

    Selecting and deleting multple held emails

    Well, better just ignore me, because I'm finding the bulk delete, Folder Nav, feature to be malfunctioning. See: http://forum.spamcop.net/forums/index.php?...st=0entry1597
  17. Craig

    Selecting and deleting multple held emails

    mmm, yes, you certainly can do that, but if you do, you are at much greater risk of making false reports. You do not want to use the bulk select-report-delete method a thousand messages at a time unless you are some kind of polymath genius and are able to visually scan them all and be SURE that those thousand messages are all spam. False reporting can cause people real problems if they are unlucky enough to have it happen to them two or three times in a few days. They or their ISP can get blackholed. At the risk of being pedantic and repetitive, I suggest that you use the webmail Folder view, that's the one you get by clicking the Folder icon at the top of the page, select the folder you want to empty (Held Mail) and use the choice box at the top of the page to empty the folder. That will move them all to the Trash folder, where you will have to do it again. Then, you have fresh empty Held mail folder. You can scan, say, fifty messages at a time and use the easy report'n'trash feature on them. Since you are more likely to not make false positives fifty at a time, your reporting will be more accurate. And if the Held messages bulk up again, just report the first fifty or so and trash the rest. imho, and all that.
  18. I'm glad to see this transition to a conferencing system. usenet is great for temporal stuff, but unless users know how to keep old postings on their local client, over time it just goes away from their POV. This makes it necessary for the same questions to be added over and again. Here in flat non-threaded forum/conference land, topics are persistant and can be scanned for relevance, as can their topic responses. Hosts can pin and freeze important topics, making the equivalent of FAQs easy to build. I must have missed the announcement of this new system in the SpamCop newsletter though. I just came here via navigating to the old Help & Questions page on spamcop.net, expecting to use that NNTP link there - the lazy way to fire up my NNTP client. I was surprised to see the link to this. Registering took just a few minutes, and here we are. So, anyway, congratulations on the new forum system <clink!> Wow. It's funny how people's different experience and contexts can produce such varying views of normalcy. I can't imagine not having used newsgroups over a period of so many years using the net. I expect that this clicky graphicky interface and the advantages of the flat forum model will be easier over time for most users. The most important thing, imho, is active swift responses from users/hosts in the know. Leveraging that, this can become a real Help system.
  19. Craig

    Selecting and deleting multple held emails

    You can easily empty any mailbox from the Folder view of the SpamCop webmail interface. Just click the Folders icon at the top of the page, Expand the folders Select the folder you want to empty. (click the selection box in the left column, on the folder's row) Click the Choose Action drop-down box above the folder table. Select Empty Folder(s). Enjoy (hey, is that Matisse E? This is craig1st, who once attended one of your early net lectures off a mention on the well. small world :-)
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