YB's Non-answers

[yourbuddy]

acknowledge that at lot of important commerce now uses email

If I am to acknowledge spam is <<good business>> I will grant you that, however I and other spamcop users detest spam...

If all you get is spam, then you are correct.

So why use email at all, and why have SpamCop.

However, we get (and send) lots of legitimate email

(not spam, as you like to pretend - to suit your insults).

It can be fairly stated that a lot of business is now done

by email - I didn't think that was a question anymore.

[yourbuddy]

Which (you have acknowledged) is ok with you.

Fortunately your logic or lack of it totally escapes me... Are you sure you have a degree in psychology? Or perhaps you play the violin?

Still can't (or don't) read - do you.

[yourbuddy]

Which (you have acknowledged) is ok with you.

Fortunately your logic or lack of it totally escapes me... Are you sure you have a degree in psychology? Or perhaps you play the violin?

And you have what - a degree of insanity

[Farelf]

To those joining late, "Welcome to the Itchy and Scratchy show, folks!"

[dra007]

To those joining late, "Welcome to the Itchy and Scratchy show, folks!"

I would love to join, how do I apply?

[turetzsr]

Which (you have acknowledged) is ok with you.

Fortunately your logic or lack of it totally escapes me... Are you sure you have a degree in psychology? Or perhaps you play the violin?

...Okay, dra007, I asked yourbuddy in another thread and now to be evenhanded I'll ask you: please avoid gratuitous ad-hominem attacks, especially in the Help forum.

...Thank you.

[dra007]

Thank you Steve, I am trying very hard!

[turetzsr]

DNSbl that is "too aggressive"

Unfortunately no DNSbl is aggresive enough to block all spam, I would rather lose legitimate mail and block as much spam as possible. It's only a matter of choice..I chose spamcop...

We (and most businesses) can't afford to lose legitimate mail.

Most individuals would (I think) also not want to lose legitimate mail.

If your legitimate mail is expendable - that's odd, but your choice.

...We (and most businesses) cannot afford the bandwidth, disc space, processor and other resources necessary to deal with all the spam that comes to us over the internet. As long as there are other means of communication (many, if not all, more reliable than e-mail even if there were NO blocklists), we (and most businesses) do not have a great deal to fear from undelivered e-mails and those that do will not be competitive until e-mail technology reaches the level that delivery is guaranteed even if, say, a backhoe breaks a line.

We do about 90% of our business by email, and about 10% by courier,

and a very small amount by fax. In your zeal to endorse SpamCop, at

least acknowledge that at lot of important commerce now uses email.

Hi, yourbuddy,

...Oh, I totally acknowledge that a "lot of important commerce now uses email." But any enterprise that relies on e-mail through the internet as the vehicle to communicate with its customers, suppliers, shareholders and other important entities is at a serious competitive disadvantage with respect to its competitors who use multiple modes of communication. And that belief has nothing to do with my advocacy of SpamCop (which applies only to myself -- I do not necessarily advocate it for others, as I have indicated in other threads in these fora).

[turetzsr]

If you are dealing in thousands of dollars of business, you can't pick up the phone if the email is broken?

How do you know it didn't arrive, if it didn't arrive??

...A phone call, a messenger, a snail mail, a knock on the door are all possible ways.

[turetzsr]

Which (you have acknowledged) is ok with you.

Fortunately your logic or lack of it totally escapes me

<snip irrelevant personal attack>

...Does the following quote from you explain the logic? I get it ....

DNSbl that is "too aggressive"

Unfortunately no DNSbl is aggresive enough to block all spam, I would rather lose legitimate mail and block as much spam as possible. It's only a matter of choice..I chose spamcop...

[dra007]

But any enterprise that relies on e-mail through the internet as the vehicle to communicate with its customers, suppliers, shareholders and other important entities is at a serious competitive disadvantage with respect to its competitors who use multiple modes of communication

The pitfall I see in relying solely in e-mail for communication is that the convenience of instant gratification in an instant e-mail exchange makes many enterprises discard other means of communication. Fortunately internet has other means of communications like secure websites which may be easier to safeguard aginst the intrusion of spammers and hackers..

[dra007]

Does the following quote from you explain the logic?

Maybe, maybe not, if I wasn't so inconvenienced and aggravated over the spam collected in my inbox'es recently, I may never have ended up here. Though I haven't explored other options, spamcop has given me the result I wanted, as well as a tool to fight spam. I am not imposing this on anyone, and I wouldn't like if anyone would try to convince me otherwise.

If buddy resorts to insults to assert his point of view, that is a choice too. Follow the threads and reach your own conclusions.

[yourbuddy]

When someone advises me that their "email is not working" it is

rather simple to send material the old fashioned way - by fax or

even by snail-mail, and sending legal documents etc. by courier.

However, most now use email and attachments to quickly send

information. They "rely" on it because they are "using" it, but if

needed - it would be possible to use telegraph or pony express.

There are alternatives, but not as good as email - that's why it's

used so ubiquitously. That's why spam is such a problem, and a

solution is so important. I just don't think DNSbl's are the answer.

Secure websites, used as a method to exchange messages is one

possibility, but everyone would need a username and a password,

and where would messages be available - at my website or yours.

[yourbuddy]

Does the following quote from you explain the logic?

Maybe, maybe not, if I wasn't so inconvenienced and aggravated over the spam collected in my inbox'es recently, I may never have ended up here. Though I haven't explored other options, spamcop has given me the result I wanted, as well as a tool to fight spam. I am not imposing this on anyone, and I wouldn't like if anyone would try to convince me otherwise.

If buddy resorts to insults to assert his point of view, that is a choice to. Follow the threads and reach your own conclusions.

Yes, I can see that you are trying, very trying

[dra007]

Indeed, I just recieved my application for the Itchy and Scratchy show...have you got yours?

[yourbuddy]

Indeed, I just recieved my application for the Itchy and Scratchy show...have you got yours? 

Yes me too, which part are you applying for

[Wazoo]

There are alternatives, but not as good as email - that's why it's

used so ubiquitously. That's why spam is such a problem, and a

solution is so important. I just don't think DNSbl's are the answer.

Secure websites, used as a method to exchange messages is one

possibility, but everyone would need a username and a password,

and where would messages be available - at my website or yours.

Just out of curiosity, have you / your business looked at tools such as that found at www.hypersend.com ?? Seems to get around most of your issues ... and though admitting I havn't done any chasing, I'd find it hard to see spammers paying to use their services ..??

[yourbuddy]

There are alternatives, but not as good as email - that's why it's

used so ubiquitously. That's why spam is such a problem, and a

solution is so important. I just don't think DNSbl's are the answer.

Secure websites, used as a method to exchange messages is one

possibility, but everyone would need a username and a password,

and where would messages be available - at my website or yours.

Just out of curiosity, have you / your business looked at tools such as that found at www.hypersend.com ?? Seems to get around most of your issues ... and though admitting I havn't done any chasing, I'd find it hard to see spammers paying to use their services ..??

Yes, Hilgraeve is an "interesting" company.

We paid lots of $$ and used their "DropChute" software, that they abandoned.

Allowing an "exclusive intermediary" to handle communication is a "breach of

confidentiality" and is not very secure - considering they can't be "trusted".

Why add another "third party" to your communication process.

[Wazoo]

Just out of curiosity, have you / your business looked at tools such as that found at www.hypersend.com ??  Seems to get around most of your issues ... and though admitting I havn't done any chasing, I'd find it hard to see spammers paying to use their services ..??

We paid lots of $$ and used their "DropChute" software, that they abandoned.

I didn't even care for the write-up on it, so couldn't say anything good or bad about that.

Allowing an "exclusive intermediary" to handle communication is a "breach of confidentiality" and is not very secure - considering they can't be "trusted".

Why add another "third party" to your communication process.

PGP would solve most of that issue, but, as I startd with, it was just a curiosity question, based on the importance you've been placing on your business model / survival depending on e-mail.

For example, the majority of web sites I support contain this boiler plate in the FAQ:

Any and all incoming spam will be reported to the appropriate ISP. As far as this site is concerned, spam is defined as any unsolicited incoming email that does not relate to the concept that we, as the product retailers, are only interested in meeting our customer's wishes, dreams, and desires. Any unsolicited email you receive that looks like it came from us has had its headers forged. Please make use of http://www.spamcop.net to make a complaint to the appropriate ISP.

The "Contact Us" page leads to a scri_pt file using a drop down list of targets like;

info at thedomain.com

questions about products

sales at thedomain.com

questions about an order

webmaster at thedomain.com

problems with the web site

Whom do you wish to e-mail? [drop down list here]

(actual e-mail address hidden away in a PHP form-mail routine over in cgi-bin)

And yet there are still the idiots sending resumes to "sales" ... offers to "increase traffic" to info .... and I haven't even touched real spam yet ....

just trying to offer that I recognize that there's spam, there's unsolicited, and there's just the plain idiot at the keyboard stuff coming in besides the "real" e-mail ... and I've somehow managed to remain on the other side of SpamCop all these years.

[Miss Betsy]

To go back to the "how do you know if an email hasn't arrived" - that's the purpose of 'bounce' messages (which is an improvement on other forms of communication where unreceived messages do just disappear).

If content filters are used, then emails that get caught may just disappear also.

But if DNSbls are used - with a code bounce message - then there is an alert that the email is not working and the old fashioned means of communication can be used if the problem is not solvable within the time frame needed.

The primary problem of DNSbls, to me, is that too often the end user does not have control over the policy nor of how they are used. (the same can be true of content filters)

Miss Betsy

[yourbuddy]

PGP would solve most of that issue, but, as I startd with, it was just a curiosity question, based on the importance you've been placing on your business model / survival depending on e-mail.

No that's not so ...

Our "business model/survival does not depend on email".

Our "business model" depends on providing service to clients.

Much of our business is done on the basis of personal contact.

Much of our communication is done using email.

Isn't it about time you stopped pretending that we are a spammers, because

we don't like SpamCop. Our primary function is corporate benefit consulting.

We advise employers on employee benefit programs.

[Wazoo]

Isn't it about time you stopped pretending that we are a spammers, because

we don't like SpamCop. Our primary function is corporate benefit consulting.

We advise employers on employee benefit programs.

I have no idea who your "we" may be, I don't even care .. (other than the fact that you've yet to identify the actual specific issue you keep complaining about) My comments have only been based on reading your stuff ... Thus far, I can't recall saying a thing in response to any of your comments, helpful advice, raging tirades, and even the name calling stuff ... (though believe me, you've caused many a thought on trying to figure out how the hell to extract a lot of the off-topic stuff from a lot of Topics/Threads to get those things back down to simple question and answer postings) ....

[Miss Betsy]

Isn't it about time you stopped pretending that we are a spammers, because

we don't like SpamCop. Our primary function is corporate benefit consulting.

No one 'pretends' that someone is a spammer. If someone sends unsolicited bulk email, he is a spammer. If he doesn't, he isn't. For those who define spam as unsolicited commercial email, any unsolicited email that doesn't go to the appropriate published address is considered spam.

People may get email blocked without being spammers because the IP address they use is shared with a spammer or because a reporter has made a mistake and reported confirmed subscription email as spam.

There are 'fixes' for people who are not spammers to have the use of unblocked email. Some of them are easy; others are more complicated.

There are some admins who will block email from people who are not spammers just because they don't like the attitude of the people who are not spammers. However, spamcop doesn't work that way and neither do most of the other public DNSbl's.

Conducting business offline can mean sending unsolicited letters or making unsolicited telephone calls to those who have not requested being on a no-call list. It is illegal to send unsolicited faxes. Conducting business online means that you do not send unsolicited email except to appropriate published mail boxes.

It is very simple. If you are a spammer, then there is reason to be unhappy with spamcop because it will stop your spam. If you are not a spammer, you can criticize the way that ISP's use the scbl (rejecting rather than tagging) or you can criticize the way the algorithym decides on the 2% criterion, or a number of different areas. None of them have anything to do with the definition of spammer.

Miss Betsy

[dra007]

It is very simple. If you are a spammer, then there is reason to be unhappy with spamcop because it will stop your spam. If you are not a spammer, you can criticize the way that ISP's use the scbl (rejecting rather than tagging) or you can criticize the way the algorithym decides on the 2% criterion, or a number of different areas. None of them have anything to do with the definition of spammer.

Very well said Miss.... I couldn't help noticing how much this is reminding me of the MSN <<I think you need a scratching post>> ad...

[yourbuddy]

It is very simple. If you are a spammer, then there is reason to be unhappy with spamcop because it will stop your spam. If you are not a spammer, you can criticize the way that ISP's use the scbl (rejecting rather than tagging) or you can criticize the way the algorithym decides on the 2% criterion, or a number of different areas. None of them have anything to do with the definition of spammer.

Very well said Miss.... I couldn't help noticing how much this is reminding me of the MSN <<I think you need a scratching post>> ad...

How about critisizing the SpamCop "business model" of self-appointed

guardians of "email correctness" using a dubious software program that

can produce incorrect evaluations as to what IS spam, and using many

vigelante type personalities to report what THEY THINK IS spam? No?

Well I didn't think so - as you all seem to enjoy/relish your little hoby,

that allows you to control/bother others with an ill-conceived concept.