nickmessick Posted May 18, 2004 Share Posted May 18, 2004 Our mail server (208.45.249.233) is currently listed in the spamcop database. During the average month we send out approx 500,000 emails to our customers. Sounds like a lot but we have about 200,000 people we send mail to. What I think is happening is many of these people are reporting us as spam rather then unsubscribing. I admit that we have had reliability problems with our automatic unsubscribe but every single request that comes by replying to the email we sent or over the phone has been honored immeditally. We aren't a reley and we don't send mail to anyone who didn't enter it into our site and we remove those who want to be removed. My question is: Does Spamcop listing mail server based on complaints by users or by other means? If it's "other means" then I'd like to know so I can fix it. If it's by complaint then I guess we'll just have to live without the people using Spamcop. I wish I could remove the people who don't want our mail but if they don't let us know then I can't remove them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek T Posted May 18, 2004 Share Posted May 18, 2004 What you don't say is whether or not they subscribed in the first place. If I get mail from a company that I have dealt with but have not specifically aked for follow-up mail, I report it as spam. spam is defined by conSent , not ConTent. Do you use a 'confirmed opt-in' system? If not, why not? Why should anyone unsubscribe from anything they've not subscribed to in the first place? You must realise that spammers use 'unsubscribe' only to confirm that they have a 'live one' no-one is going to unsubscribe unless they specifically subscribed these days. Spammers spoil it for everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Betsy Posted May 18, 2004 Share Posted May 18, 2004 There are some people who don't unsubscribe and report even mailings they *paid* for. There are ways to minimize that and spamcop will delist you if you can show that you have a confirmed subscription list. However, you might look at the mailing list Best practices FAQ. Your IP address is no longer listed, but the sample shown says "Thank You for your business." and if you did not have the person agree on the page where they entered their email address to receive further mailings from you, then there are many who consider that spam. And it is really annoying when the unsubscribe doesn't work - I know because I have unsubscribed twice (supposedly successfully); emailed as many different addresses I could find that I thought might pass the word on and talked in person to a sales representative who said he would see that it was corrected - and they are still coming. I am really tempted to report them through spamcop and see if that gets their attention. Some do, the very first time it doesn't work. Spammers have spoiled it for everyone, just as thieves and muggers spoil moonlight walks and leaving the door unlocked offline Miss Betsy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey Posted May 18, 2004 Share Posted May 18, 2004 ...we don't send mail to anyone who didn't enter it into our site.... Do you understand what Derek meant by "Confirmed opt-in"? There is a big difference between (a) someone entering their address as part of an order form and ( specifically telling you, "please send me E-mail subsequent to my order." (I am of course assuming you are selling something) Even if people check (or don't UNCHECK) the box that says, "please send me updates/product information...." that is not confirmed. I can go to several sites and enter any e-mail address I want, a sample of spamhaus entry forms is here: http://www.toastedspam.com/freespamlist. Point is, after someone gives you their e-mail address, you should send them an E-mail asking them if they REALLY wanted to be on the mailing list. This confirms their e-mail address AND the fact that they actually want to receive the subsequent E-mails. There are probably several hundred sites that explain this better than I did, this is one of them: http://www.spamresource.com/closedloop.html This gives you strong evidence for people like spam Cop when you get listed becuase you have proof that someone asked you (twice, in a row even) to send them E-mail. Of course honoring removal requests is your part of the bargain in all this..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickmessick Posted May 18, 2004 Author Share Posted May 18, 2004 We are definetly going to start doing either double opt-in or stronger warnings on the order page combined with clearer instructions on how to unsubscribe. The people who don't want our emails are a small minority so double opt-in might not work so we would miss all the people who would welcome our email but are too lazy to respond, such as myself : ) In any case we're going to make sure our emails go to only those who want it. People who don't want the email aren't going to give us money plus I really hate getting spam personally and I don't want other people to think we're spamming them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sommerfeld Posted May 19, 2004 Share Posted May 19, 2004 Even folks who intend to get mail from you will make typos when entering the email address -- at which point you'll be bombarding someone else with your mail, and you'll rightly get spam complaints for that! And when this goes wrong, it goes horribly wrong. The whole point of confirmed/closed-loop opt-in is to catch errors and ensure that the person reading the mailbox in question (as distinct from the person/entity/robot entering the email address) intends to subscribe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlyn Posted May 19, 2004 Share Posted May 19, 2004 If you are sending mail to persons who did not ask for it then it is spam. The number of people that reported your email is just a small representation. I know from prior experience it is 1 in many thousands that report and you have many reports. Just because someone enters their email at your site doe not mean that is the person that wants it or someone could just sign anyone else up. If you are not using confirmed opt-in the you should be listed. In the past 28.4 days you has been listed 15 times for a total of 8.2 days You are listed almost 30% (28.8%) of the time. You definately have a problem. This is not just people forgetting they asked for it. If you keep this up you will make many more blocklists very fast! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlyn Posted May 19, 2004 Share Posted May 19, 2004 We are definetly going to start doing either double opt-in or stronger warnings on the order page combined with clearer instructions on how to unsubscribe. Double opt-in is spammer talk. You must confirm the requets with a separate transaction. Just having instructions on your site about how to unsubscribe without "confirming" the opt-in makes you opt-out spammers but we knew that already. Pickett's Commentary: Spammer lies are boring. The people who don't want our emails are a small minority No they are not a small number. You have way too many reports. There can actually be thousands that go unreported for every one reported through Spamcop. Crissman's Corollary: A spammer, when caught, blames his victims. so double opt-in might not work so we would miss all the people who would welcome our email but are too lazy to respond, such as myself : ) Like I said there is no such thing as double opt-in. If you do not confirm the request then you are spamming. Pretty soon you will miss everyone because you will have an intranet as no one will accept email from you. About being to lazy to respond is just an excuse, if they want it they will "confirm". Lexical Contradiction: Spammers will redefine any term in order to disguise their abuse of Internet resources. In any case we're going to make sure our emails go to only those who want it. People who don't want the email aren't going to give us money You are spamming them if you are not confirming your email requests and anyone can put any email address they want in your site. Rule #4: The natural course of a spamming business is to go bankrupt plus I really hate getting spam personally and I don't want other people to think we're spamming them. Sharp's Corollary: Spammers attempt to re-define "spamming" as that which they do not do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek T Posted May 19, 2004 Share Posted May 19, 2004 Hey, Merlyn, don't beat about the bush, tell us what you REALLY think! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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