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Wow what a forum!


kac

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I stumbled in here because of a post on my host's message board about the server I'm on being listed on Spamcop. I think he made a mistake because I can't find anything about my ip here. Anyway...

I have to say that this is probably one of the rudest forums I've ever been to. Every post I've read where someone voices a complaint, everyone jumps on them. I've read several posts where the poster didn't care anything about the complaint, but just how to prove the orginal poster wrong or to make the person look bad. Comments about the person being silly for relying on e-mail, tell me that 90 percent of websites don't rely on e-mail. Now maybe it's me but comments like"It has been found that most people that come in here and rant like you have end up finding out it is their own fault due to their careless abuse of the system." only serve to humiliate the original poster. Then there is the "No, would you really expect that from a rant and rave muntchkin troll? " (from the same thread). Here's one from a different thread, " "Double-opt-in" .. sure, in some circles, this is the "magic" phrase ... to the anti-spam folks in general, this is pretty much spammy-speak." This is calling someone a spammer to me. It sounded like the person believes that he/she is doing what he/she can to not spam, and they accused of being a spammer. There area a dozen more examples just like the ones I've pasted here.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the complaints are valid, but geez, come on, this is a forum for discussion and not a place to take your bad day out on someone. It kind of reminds me of a bumper sticker that used to be pretty popular, "Mean People Suck", only in this case it should read something more like "Mean Boards Suck."

Not that it will do any good to some of the people here, but many of us don't have your "knowledge" of spam, and come here for help or to voice a concern.

kac

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I stumbled in here

Don't you just hate it when that happens? An accidental mouse click, a wrong key pressed, and all of a sudden, browsers get sent somewhere, forms get filled in, e-mails get sent, activation codes get processed, and yet more web pages appear out of nowhere .. there ought to be laws against this kind of thing, huh?

because of a post on my host's message board about the server I'm on being listed on Spamcop. I think he made a mistake because I can't find anything about my ip here.

And you know what sucks about this? With all the silliness going on lately with folks coming in ranting and raving about some situation but forgetting to actually identify any of the critical data points, or going off the deep end and including off the wall concepts and wrong information, or, as the scenario you repeat, simply including a "pointer to somewhere out there" ... it's a bit hard to guess at just which of the recent items you might be trying to peg your commentary onto ... The phrase "the server I'm on" kind of runs it down to three or four (if we stay "recent") of these above mentioned off-the-mark rants that included wrong data, details, and concepts. A lot of work went into the FAQ and a lot of those previously posted items to give more than a hint that e-mail issues existing due to an ISP's use of the SpamDNSbl just don't seem to have a dang thing to do with the IP of a web-site. Trying to guess at what may be posted on your host's message board about some unidentified IP that you can't find "here" ... Trust me, there are other games that bring more satisfaction ...

I have to say that this is probably one of the rudest forums I've ever been to. Every post I've read where someone voices a complaint, everyone jumps on them. I've read several posts where the poster didn't care anything about the complaint, but just how to prove the orginal poster wrong or to make the person look bad.

On the other hand, had you read some of those Topics through to their completion, or even picked another sampling of Topics to read, you'd have found things like "Thanks" ... "Got it fixed" ... "never would have guessed that ...."

There area a dozen more examples just like the ones I've pasted here.

Just as there are a dozen more examples that offer something quite different.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the complaints are valid, but geez, come on, this is a forum for discussion and not a place to take your bad day out on someone.

That's actually a pretty funny statement ... some of your previous comments come from a Topic that was started with a Title of "This service really sucks" ... a Topic that took 20+ posts to finally get the actual IP involved identified by this user and his/her "expert" hosting pros .... suggestions on where to go get a bit more educated on what was needed, what was going on, where to get more data, etc. were responded to with more than just a touch of animosity ... but you choose to raise your objections that some responses were less than "tender" ... I'd say your perception is showing a bit of a tilt in a certain direction ...

It kind of reminds me of a bumper sticker that used to be pretty popular, "Mean People Suck", only in this case it should read something more like "Mean Boards Suck."

As compared to sayings like:

"Some drink at the fountain of knowledge ... others just gargle."

"Providing some people access to a keyboard and reasonable anonymity has a similar effect to providing a case of tequila to a college football team." - Afterburner

"Never argue with an idiot. They bring you down to their level, and then beat you with experience."

""The single biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place" - George Bernard Shaw

Not that it will do any good to some of the people here, but many of us don't have your "knowledge" of spam, and come here for help or to voice a concern.

I believe I've addressed this in the above somewhere. If you take some more time and actually read the stuff that gets imparted within these many discussions, you will in fact find that much knowledge is passed on, concerns put to rest, and guess what, problems get solved.

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kac has made some good points and has tried to be objective.

One thing that was failed to be noticed (which is easy to do) was some of the complaints about comments were the comments of the original poster, not those of the replies.

It is something to think about, and we do tend to go off on the deep end, especially when the OP does not want to provide any of the requested information and continues on with their own rant and raving instead of seriously looking for help and trying to be part of the solution. It is a two way street.

If kac would take the time to read a bit more and pay special attention to who the poster is (original and reply) It would generally be found that ranting generally starts with original poster, who just like kac has just come to this forum for the first time, but unlike kac, has not take any time to read anything first, and just starts posting using a bad attitude, which unfortunate rubs off on us and we then tend to reply in a not so kind manner. I know that I have been guilty of this.

But face it, reading all the rants and trying to help gets frustrating especially when the OP just does not want to listen.

What does make it worth while though is the numerous replies at the end of messages expressing thanks for the help that had been provided.

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many of us don't have your "knowledge" of spam, and come here for help or to voice a concern.

Part of the problem that strikes people who don't have a knowledge of spam or servers and consequently of the 'geek' culture is the bluntness and the way some posters are up front and humorous with their comments and opinions and feelings. They don't mean to be offensive and aren't offended by such comments. This forum is a haven of politeness and diplomacy compared to other places where geeks hang out.

Those of us who are not 'geeks' who are posters managed to learn about spam and how to fight it by 'lurking' for a while before posting. It is pretty obvious that if someone has a friendly attitude, the answers are friendlier and that posters go out of the way to be helpful. However, even with posters who are abusive and who won't even try to listen, people do keep trying to help them.

In the thread about the poster who had double opt in, if you knew something about spam and spammers, you would have been suspicious also because of the terms he used and the situations he described. Even if he were just a business man and not in the business of spamming, what he seemed to be describing was spam.

Right now, people who have businesses online can't be described as 'innocent' victims anymore. They are ignorant of what a business needs to know to be successful online. Offline, we aren't sympathetic to those businesses who do really dumb things. Nobody gives them any breaks if they lose money because they didn't know what the rules are or how things work or if they lost a big business deal because they bought cheap telephone equipment which broke and they didn't get a business call. And if they call the 'no call' list for telemarketing, no one defends them because 'they didn't know' and is sorry that they get fined.

Miss Betsy

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In the thread about the poster who had double opt in, if you knew something about spam and spammers, you would have been suspicious also because of the terms he used and the situations he described.  Even if he were just a business man and not in the business of spamming, what he seemed to be describing was spam.

Right now, people who have businesses online can't be described as 'innocent' victims anymore.  They are ignorant of what a business needs to know to be successful online.  Offline, we aren't sympathetic to those businesses who do really dumb things.  Nobody gives them any breaks if they lose money because they didn't know what the rules are or how things work or if they lost a big business deal because they bought cheap telephone equipment which broke and they didn't get a business call.  And if they call the 'no call' list for telemarketing, no one defends them because 'they didn't know' and is sorry that they get fined.

Miss Betsy

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Miss Betsy:

I just replied in that specific thread about this, but I feel some people jumped to conclusions there with not enough evidence to "convict" the OP. A fair "questioning" would be needed rather than simply assuming what was meant by certain phrases which could have been spam-speak.

I'm not saying we give him a break if he is spamming. I am saying we need more answers to determine IF he was spamming. He may be sending messages only to customers who want and requested his message and bouncing viruses to the spamtraps at the same time. We don't know because the OP has become silent after the questioning started becoming abusive toward the "spammer".

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I agree with you (Steve) that people could be more willing to lead an OP with questions to either get to the real problem or let him hang himself.

It does offer an opportunity to educate those who should know better. And you are better at it than I am (though I rarely succumb to temptation and am accusatory).

OTOH, someone who 'knows' what his problem is and wants correction for 'his' solution may not be really worth the effort. The ones who are obviously angry, will sometimes calm down and listen after the first bursts of rage have been vented. But the ones who know that spamcop has made a mistake rarely back down - at least in public.

Also, the best troubleshooters are often the 'bluntest' spoken (genetic traits?). While I don't condone rudeness, along with not making excuses for people who don't listen to common knowledge, I don't have a lot of sympathy for the thin skinned either. Few of the comments that are objected to are 'scary' - if you are not a spammer, then try to make your case clearer, not whine about how rude people are.

This thread is in the Lounge and it is a discussion of the forum dynamics - if any of the posters in other threads want to take umbrage, my answer is "if the shoe fits..."

But if you notice I am not saying so in those threads - just in this discussion. Which is basically in support of your plea to be more patient before making smart aleck remarks.

Miss Betsy

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Part of the problem that strikes people who don't have a knowledge of spam or servers and consequently of the 'geek' culture is the bluntness and the way some posters are up front and humorous with their comments and opinions and feelings.  They don't mean to be offensive and aren't offended by such comments.  This forum is a haven of politeness and diplomacy compared to other places where geeks hang out.

Visions of SNL's Computer Guy, Nick Burns just popped into my head.

I think the point that most people miss is that dorks/geeks/IT people speak a completely different language than the rest of the world. While I agree that most of us need to fine-tune our vocabulary (and tempers) so we don't blow users away with techno-geekspeak, I also believe that if people are going to come here and complain, they should understand what they are complaining about first.

You're a great interpreter, Miss Betsy. ;)

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