Forums, Newsgroups, Netiquette, Rules, Etc.

[Jeff G.]

Can we initiate a policy of autoremove for all inapproprite material ?

I haven't seen any type of autoremove capability in these Forums.

[Wazoo]

Won't argue with the movement of the thread, but must say that I'm not exactly pleased to see that it's now "I" that started it .... think I'd have rather seen ownership where it rightfully belongs, although a one word "redacted" or something in lieu of the tech content .... just my first thought ....

[Jeff G.]

Sorry, the first post chronogically in the result of a split Topic gets the attribution - there's nothing I can do about that.

[Wazoo]

No problem, it just appeared that you'd simply deleted David's first post .. see that due to the removal of addtional content, it had aged off to a few pages later in the Help Forum ...

[Miss Betsy]

Your posting the Topic here was not bad per se, but the SpamCop Lounge Forum might have been a better choice.

I don't see that at all. There are numerous "technical" exchanges in this forum now. The Lounge is for OT posts, personal opinions. By that criterion, you should have moved this thread to the Lounge (and I did consider posting my remarks there).

I have another suggestion/brainstorm:

On the web page where one comes to either the web forum or the ng's, instead of "General Help" and "Email Help" the choices become

Spamcop Reporting User Help -> web forum

This would be the place to put the information that the help forum is for a user forum for questions about using spamcop reporting and that Why am I blocked questions go to Blocklist Information & technical Discussion forum

Technical questions or discussion about spam go to the web forum OR spamcop ng

Spamcop Blocklist Information & Technical Discussion -> choice of web forum or spamcop ng, .geeks

The web forum would have the pinned FAQ on why am I blocked? Perhaps also "Spews is down the hall"? IMHO, it would not matter that there were technical discussions over some visitors' heads because it would emphasize that being blocked is not a whim or something only spamcop does.

Since there are some people who like the forum and some who like ng discussion, I think there should be a choice for the "professionals" who want to ask a question.

Spamcop Email

Spamcop Announcements - for when there is a known problem that has been fixed or when the problem is being worked on

With of course, the blurb about checking this forum if you are having a problem to see if it has been reported yet.

Miss Betsy

[Craig]

I'm with Betsy. Travelling overseas for quite awhile, I didn't check the newsgroups for quite some time, and when I returned to home base and had a spamcop problem, I figured I'd go to the newsgroups the way I usually do, by launching my NNTP client by clicking on the Help links on the old spamcop home page. I was surprised when I arrived at this forum instead of the newsgroups. Now I see the newsgroup links buried below the fold on the home page, with not much in the way of clear headers indicating why one would go to them instead of here. It would be nice if some clearer headings and explanatory text could be provided on the home page. I had no idea that this web forum was only for newbie questions. It jsut looked like the newsgroups were being dumped.

[Jeff G.]

In this Forum, anything goes, unless one or more of the following conditions exist:

• It is abusive
  
• It would be rated PG or higher by the MPAA
  
• It is spam (it really should be in spamcop.spam)
  
• It relates to the SpamCop Parsing and Reporting System (it really should be in the SpamCop Help Forum and I may move it there)
  
• It relates to the SpamCop Email System (it really should be in the SpamCop Email Forum and I may move it there)
  
• It is a test (it really should be in the Testing forum and I may move it there)
  

Discussions of things which would normally be discussed in the spamcop, spamcop.social, and spamcop.geeks newsgroups are welcome here.

I am thinking about merging the preceding into the Welcome Topic. Comments, anyone? Thanks!

[Miss Betsy]

You would need also to change the description of the Lounge to anything except help with spamcop reporting or why am I blocked or spamcop email service?

It might work just fine. People who use web forums don't seem to mind that topics get all mixed up. Though the ones I have seen in other places generally have separated the forums into several with a very specific focus so maybe it is because there haven't been that many different topics yet.

It is too bad that you can't do anything about the web page, but maybe that will come with time.

Miss Betsy

[ob1db]

I am quite happy to have your technical feedback, you seem to have significant knowledge in some areas. It is your tendency to make anything you don't like or agree with into a frontal assault that disturbs me.

Well, I'm a bit lost .. you ask questions, I offer answers, and you still seem to work hard to take things as a personal attack.  I don't get it.

Yes, you decidedly DON'T get it! Which part of "please take discussions of personal nature, conflicts, critiques of other people's styles as well as general airing of other's laundry OFF THE FORUM and NG" is it that you don't understand ? Are you actually NOT aware you put things out as a frontal assault and/or a personal attack ?

In the area of Netiquette, I think you act like a Newbie. You feel completely free to range in any direction, on or off-topic, no matter how much it is muddying a discussion. Personally, I try to avoid that. In the other NG forums I have been a member of, we don't do that. If we feel a compelling need to go OT or make an extended critique of another person, we take it off-NG, plain and simple. Regardless, if we MUST stay on-NG with a discussion like this (member who has no email or requests no email) we start a NEW DISCUSSION referencing the old but making it clear we went OT or shifted the thread.

If, as you stalwartly claim, this is a Newbie-friendly forum than most of what you posted in this thread TO ME does not belong here. It belongs in email or in the dustbin, your choice. Set an example of higher tone. Keep this a flame free forum.

Please feel free to post any and all technical responses: I have no issue with that. The polemics etc. really should go.

When in doubt, snip it out.

Is that clear enough ?

David

[Miss Betsy]

When in doubt, snip it out.

                              

Ducking and running....

Miss Betsy

[Wazoo]

You know, I've spent a while thinking about your last (well your last few actually) .. the only thing I can come up with is that the last big question you posted, you must have threw the words up on screen intended to be a rhetorical remark, whereas I read your words, I thought you'd actually asked a question, and I tried to answer your question.

You asked if you somehow missed something in the newsgroups, and I even suggested that most folks don't read everything in a newsgroups, only looking at things that caught their attention, so the plausibility that you'd not read some massive threads was a possibility and I pointed that out. I still haven't figured out how you read that as a frontal attack on anyone. Remember, I thought you'd actually asked a question there.

You say you don't have time for flame wars. First of all, if you think this is a flame war, well, maybe that explains the rest of your thoughts ... might I invite to take the time to go over to NANAE newsgroup and witness a few actual flame wars? That you want to take the time to continue arguing the fact that you think I have something personal and I'm waging a personal campaign aginst you, this is where I'm lost.

I've got my own client base to attend to, I volunteer time over in the Microsoft peer-to-peer newsgroups, I volunteer time both here and the SpamCop newsgroups, I have a presence in dozens of other newsgroups, and lurk in dozen's of others (primarily to keep up with various issues of the day and problem resolutions), so you can trust that I spend little time during my waking moments thinking about how to "get" you.

So I'll ask that if you ask a rhetorical question in the future, tag it as such ... If you ask a question that is a question, then take the responses as attempted answer to your questions. And no, I don't see this as a frontal attack, simply a suggestion as to how to handle things in the future. Beyond that I see no reason to keep your arguement alive, it wasn't based on true facts, your assumptions just have no merit.

[ob1db]

OK, can ANYONE help me here or am I alone in my perceptions ? I feel as though Monsieur Wazoo lives on a planet of his own at times (but NOT all the time!). I mention, as tactfully as I know how, that while I respect his tech knowhow, I find that he appears to feel "completely free to range in any direction, on or off-topic, no matter how much it is muddying a discussion". Somehow he reads this as being "David thinks I am attacking him".

NOOOOO, that is not the ONLY point! Yes, I think he needlessly nitpicks some of what I post. But the broader comment is really what I am driving at.

Here is a for instance. There is a new thread on how to deal with trolls. Wazoo makes a nice reply then goes sideways for 2 paragraphs in an unrelated dissertation on MODERATOR and what it does or doesn't mean. Everyone ignored that one, thankfully, but it reads like someone allowing their internal dialog to spill onto the screen. ONE sentence would have sufficed.

Back to THIS thread: you read me exactly backwards, to the extent I wonder if you actually HAVE read what I wrote.

You said:

You know, I've spent a while thinking about your last (well your last few actually) .. the only thing I can come up with is that the last big question you posted, you must have threw the words up on screen intended to be a rhetorical remark, whereas I read your words, I thought you'd actually asked a question, and I tried to answer your question.

You asked if you somehow missed something in the newsgroups, and I even suggested that most folks don't read everything in a newsgroups, only looking at things that caught their attention, so the plausibility that you'd not read some massive threads was a possibility and I pointed that out.  I still haven't figured out how you read that as a frontal attack on anyone.  Remember, I thought you'd actually asked a question there.

I did NOT find that to be an attack, it was actually the one useful, moderate answer you posted in that reponse! That was the welcome part and my original comment was not rhetorical. The rest of your response was, well, how to be polite, NITPICKING ? Carping that I did not flag it for JT, kvetching that I might have been over the newbie's head (which it wasn't) and basically using up 3 or 4 paragraphs that could have been expressed in 2 or 3 sentences OR JUST LEFT OFF completely, leaving the discussion clear and newbie-friendly.

You say you don't have time for flame wars.  First of all, if you think this is a flame war, well, maybe that explains the rest of your thoughts ... might I invite to take the time to go over to NANAE newsgroup and witness a few actual flame wars?

Again, you must somehow miss half of what I write. I am a veteran of Usenet back to the dark ages. I am a longtime member of an allegedly professional newsgroups where withering flamefests periodically break out. We call this "breaking out the flame-o-tronic" or some such. Every time it happens, the newbies either shrink away and leave, revert to just lurking or LOUDLY ASK US ALLEGEDLY ADVANCED MEMBERS TO ACT OUR AGE and try to be more conscious in our posts and choices of words. Flamefests or even excessive sparring don't really heighten the tone of any group.

Funny how the new and "ignorant" can sometimes cut to the core of the matter. Miss Betsy is a great example. She is completely fearless and unfettered both in opinions and content. She has no problem telling us old farts when we are out of line or less than helpful.

But one thing I also note: I don't see her spinning off-topic or even using 1 sentence more than absolutely necessary to convey her intent. She resists veering off-topic for anything except directly related matters. I think she is well on her way to being a top-rate forum member.

Maybe I am the one off-base. I think senior or "advanced" members can show their experience better by using more economy in responding. I wish I did not have to use up this much bandwidth to communicate this, I feel hypocritical, except that the OP in this didn't get any of my prior answer.

Wazoo, you are a great contributor when you stay on topic. Please consider parsing your thoughts a wee bit more and try to leave OUT more of your internal dialog as well as giving more thought to what might be needless nitpicking on your part.

I am surrendering my soapbox now. If others think I am out of line, please feel free to say so.

Sorry for occupying so much space getting this out. VERY glad Jeff made it into it's own topic.!

David

[Jeff G.]

There is a new thread on how to deal with trolls. Wazoo makes a nice reply then goes sideways for 2 paragraphs in an unrelated dissertation on MODERATOR and what it does or doesn't mean.

Those two paragraphs were absolutely relevant. I am not a "Moderator" in the Usenet sense, and that hadn't been made clear before.

VERY glad Jeff made it into it's own topic.!

Thanks, but please call me JeffG or Jeff G. 'round these parts.

[ob1db]

There is a new thread on how to deal with trolls. Wazoo makes a nice reply then goes sideways for 2 paragraphs in an unrelated dissertation on MODERATOR and what it does or doesn't mean.

Those two paragraphs were absolutely relevant. I am not a "Moderator" in the Usenet sense, and that hadn't been made clear before.

VERY glad Jeff made it into it's own topic.!

Thanks, but please call me JeffG or Jeff G. 'round these parts.

OK, OK, but ALL it needed was 1 or 2 sentences, sheesh. And really was not at all relevant to the thread, as least that I can see

:-0

Had I been the one commenting, I would have inserted a single line in the reply and referenced a new topic "Moderated NGs and forums" or something of the sort.... My point being:

A: keep it clear, simple and on-topic and

B: make th example of A to the newbies and the ignorant

Do you think I am equally off with the rest of this ? Or do you prefer not to weigh in ? I understand if you feel that way.

Sorry, I will remember to call you JeffG, OK ?

Thanks

db

[Miss Betsy]

Do you think I am equally off with the rest of this ? Or do you prefer not to weigh in ? I understand if you feel that way.

Unfortunately you got caught in the "setting up" of the help web forum, I think, is the problem. It is understandable that not getting answers in the ng, that you moved your question to the web forum to see what people here had to say. But it really is not a newbie help topic, as I pointed out.

Wazoo likes to /explain/ things. Once you have been a member of the ng's and the web forum, you will understand that is the way he is. You may not have read Larry Kilgallen's posts in the ng .help, but I found him very helpful. Others didn't. That's the reason (which Larry explained to me when I was a newbie) that there are ng's and now web forums - there are different posters, different styles and different expertise and therefore more of a chance that a poster will get an answer and one that he will understand.

Now that we are in the Lounge, anything goes. Topics can drift (you want to see *real* topic drift, visit .social). If you think you have a better answer than Wazoo or that he is being too techie, post your own answer (without comment on Wazoo's style) in the forum. Or as you have suggested, indicate that you are starting a new topic in the Lounge that goes into that tangent. That would be a good practice for regulars to adopt - and save JeffG a lot of trouble moving topics.

Or, as I have suggested, lobby for another forum where technical questions can be asked. IMHO, the "Why am I blocked" and spamcop reporting help questions can be separated into two forums. Many of the "why am I blocked" questions are asked by people who are technically fluent and for the ones who aren't, it wouldn't hurt them to see that the question is not as simple as they thought.

If you want to let off steam about Wazoo's posts, the Lounge will tolerate it.

And I am glad that Wazoo explained about the moderator. What JeffG does is different than what "moderated" generally means. Since I am /technically/ technically non-fluent, it was good for me to know when I am making suggestions.

Of course, Wazoo knows that while I understand some things, I am woefully ignorant in other areas. He might not have explained that to someone else like you who knows these things.

So, while I don't think you are exactly off base, you don't have enough experience in the spamcop forums (web or ng) to be making, shall we say, productive criticism. It would be better to start over with a clean slate. Who knows? Wazoo's style may sound better after a while.

Miss Betsy

[StevenUnderwood]

Had I been the one commenting, I would have inserted a single line in the reply and referenced a new topic "Moderated NGs and forums" or something of the sort....

ob1db: I would like to add to Miss Betsy that as this forum is new, the format is also new to many of us as well. Some of us (myself included) are still posting like we are on a sub-thread like the newsgroups we are accustomed to.

I like the suggestion you made to start a new topic elsewhere with a pointer in the original thread. I had not thought about that being a possibility and have posted to several threads which have wandered before really tinking about it. I have also started to reply and stopped when I realized how off topic it had gotten. I will keep your suggestion in mind and plan to use it.

Thank you

[Craig]

I'm a bit apprehensive in making this topic response, so please bear with me and know that I intend to be constructive.

I'm green here, but no sprout otherwise. I've got too many years of experience on flat nonthreaded conferencing systems like this. As well, I operate as host for nine private web based online conferences for a nonprofit. I'm as clueless as the next person, but at least I can say I've been 'here' before.

So, anyway, what I'm finding here on this system is that it is very unclear as to what kind of questions and user contributions are actually welcome here. I came here because the most obvious links to help from the SC webmail system led me here. Nothing bopped me over the head on the way in to let me know that if I want technical advice with some depth, I should go back to the newsgroups. In fact, iirc, all I saw was text saying that these forums are where help and mutual support will be offered. It's only after reading various topic responses here that I now understand that not only do the newsgroups remain alive, but in fact they seem to be where we the users are supposed to go for technical discussion of depth. How deep that depth is, and where the line is, is unclear to me. (Given my own attempts at helping here, I now don't know if I've been helpful, or what.) I don't know if my technical questions have been out of place, and should have been placed on the newsgroups. It would be nice to have a single point of contact, but I can swing with whatever, as long as I know what whatever is.

Beyond that, it's not clear to me now, at all, where the line lies here between too shallow and too deep, in the two forums, SpamCop Help and SpamCop Email. The description of the Lounge indicates that not for SpamCop tech stuff, like spamcop.social. But, it seems that the Lounge if full of spamcop tech topics. Have I got that wrong?

I know it is tough to build a conferencing system like this. And I want to make it clear that this has been quite helpful to me so far. You folks have spent time helping me and others solve spamcop problems, and you deserve all the thanks.

I hope this isn't too disjointed. I'm coming down off some hours of boring system work, the kind that requires concentration and isn't very fun. So, slackage please.

That's all!

[Wazoo]

The description of the Lounge indicates that not for SpamCop tech stuff, like spamcop.social. But, it seems that the Lounge if full of spamcop tech topics. Have I got that wrong

JeffG hasn't the power to make new Forum sections. JeffT hasn't seen the need to add more Forums. Again, the web-based thing was to be for those not technically proficient to fire up a newsreader app and point it towards the newsgroups, and for those already interfacing with the SpamCop tool set via a web browser. The hard core stuff was to remain over in the newsgroups. The techie stuff you see here is here because it was moved from the "Help" Forum, and there is no other "logical" place to put it, in the present configuration. Maybe consider this as "one of those geeky conversations going on over there in the back corner, while you're dropping another few coins into the pool table" <g>

It would be nice to have a single point of contact, but I can swing with whatever, as long as I know what whatever is

I had pointed out to one individual that the reality is, those of us providing "support" here are but just a small sub-set of those folks active over in the newsgroups ... as the prevailing winds over there are "no way" to the web-based interface. Time will tell eventually, and it could all be different tomorrow anyway <g>

[Craig]

Ah, I'm getting it now. Thanks for the illumination. I guess next time I'm in need of SpamCop Web Mail help, or SpamCop web based spam reporting, I'll come here, and/or if it's a partiuclarly complex problem I'll consider firing up the nntp client and look over in news land too.

Since usenet got so deluged with spam I've hardly been there at all. But the SC newsgroups have been particularly free of it, (of course!) , so it's not a problem there.

[Miss Betsy]

An added element is that there are some "techies" who prefer the web forum to the ng's (in addition to those who come here because they don't read the web pages as pointing to the ng's for technical assistance). Some of the questions about "why am I blocked" have gotten very technical (from my point of view) without being off topic.

When I first encountered the ng's, they had already been divided into spamcop (which, by inference, was for people who knew what they were doing), .help for user questions (few people asked, then, why am I blocked) for newbies, .social which was intended for anything off topic, but had evolved to anything not related to spam, and .geeks for questions about computers and software, and .spam for the posting of entire spam (the SOP is to post it there and discuss it in spamcop, .help, or .routing. .routing was added after I came for people who were interested enough to track down reporting addresses that would go to people who would/could respond because it seemed like every other post in spamcop was titled "Override".

When more people started being blocked and more non-technically fluent people started using spamcop and spamcop email service, there were many who complained about having to learn to use newsgroups to get help. Thus the web forum. As Wazoo said, there are a number of regulars in the ng's who have no interest in the web forum. So, it wasn't seen necessary to set up a forum that was separate for more technical discussion since it was assumed that more technical types would choose the ng's rather than the web forum.

However, it has confused newcomers because of the way the web pages leading to the web forum and the ng's is set up. So the forum for spamcop reporting was getting to be less specifically for spamcop user "help" and more general. Naturally newcomers are not going to comment so I did as "self-appointed spokesperson" for the newbie. I am glad that more experienced people are chiming in because I can't make many constructive suggestions.

Miss Betsy

[ob1db]

Mz Betsy (OK if I call you that?), you are awesome. If you are REALLY almost a newbie then your growth rate is astonishing. Some folks don't get your degree of clarity in YEARS out here...

In case it is not apparent, I am a lifetime techie who has been on the Internet back to before there was an Internet, starting with something called Compuserve and then USENET. So I am pretty NG and Internet savvy. Hence my desire to see a higher level of netiquette observed.

Mind you, I learned all this as a result of weathering some brutal flame-wars elsewhere. It took a few heads who are older, wiser and greyer still then me to get me on this way of thinking.

Do you think I am equally off with the rest of this ? Or do you prefer not to weigh in ? I understand if you feel that way.

Unfortunately you got caught in the "setting up" of the help web forum, I think, is the problem. It is understandable that not getting answers in the ng, that you moved your question to the web forum to see what people here had to say. But it really is not a newbie help topic, as I pointed out.

Wazoo likes to /explain/ things. Once you have been a member of the ng's and the web forum, you will understand that is the way he is. You may not have read Larry Kilgallen's posts in the ng .help, but I found him very helpful. Others didn't.

I find Kilgallen and Mike Easter to be two of the most helpful people on the Newsgroups. Mr. Easter has shown great patience with some of my growing pains over there, LOL. Both of these guys understand the principles I am espousing here:

- clear concise answers

- staying on topic wherever possible

- sticking to CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM (!!!!!)

- KEEPING PERSONAL ANIMUS or ISSUES OUT OF THE DISCUSSION

- restricting their egos

Now, Mr. Wazoo appears at times to be up in their league technically. It is the social graces of these 5 points he could use some growth in. In fact, if he took their examples and moved 1/2 way there, I would probably shut up about this for all time, honestly.

And as I said 3 or 4 posts ago, there was nearly NO clarity as to what should go here or over to NG land. JT pretty much dissapeared from there: I came here.

Now that we are in the Lounge, anything goes.  Topics can drift (you want to see *real* topic drift, visit .social).  If you think you have a better answer than Wazoo or that he is being too techie, post your own answer (without comment on Wazoo's style) in the  forum.  Or as you have suggested, indicate that you are starting a new topic in the Lounge that goes into that tangent.  That would be a good practice for regulars to adopt - and save JeffG a lot of trouble moving topics.

I see some positive reaction to this thinking already. Let's hope it sticks.

Or, as I have suggested, lobby for another forum where technical questions can be asked.

I am open either way. I am VERY techie, so I may stick to the NG unless I need to get JT's attention.

And I am glad that Wazoo explained about the moderator.  What JeffG does is different than what "moderated" generally means.

JeffG already shared his similar thoughts.

So, while I don't think you are exactly off base, you don't have enough experience in the spamcop forums (web or ng) to be making, shall we say, productive criticism.  It would be better to start over with a clean slate.

To say the least, I had no idea what a minefield this had become! Now that I know where the cow patties are, i will try to step over them!

LOL

Who knows? Wazoo's style may sound better after a while.

Um, as long as he sticks to technical commentary, I have no problem with how he posts at all to begin with. I think I have already said enough about the other stuff...

Perhaps YOUR good influence will rub off on him!

;-)

I believe my contributions to the NG are at least STARTING to be worthwhile. See you around.

David

[Miss Betsy]

<blush> I am no longer a newbie to spamcop, but I stick around because I find the whole subject of spam fighting to be fascinating. And IMHO, the newbie needs an advocate.

Yes, I think you will be an asset to whichever spamcop discussion format you visit.

One starts to get a hang of what needs to be said and what probably should be ignored after a while as far as personalities go. And you are now up to speed on what was hoped to be accomplished with the help web forum (which I think caused a certain portion of the initial miscommunication).

Miss Betsy

[Craig]

Thanks for the backgroung. I've got a better picture now of what's gone down.

[GreenLady]

I am no longer a newbie to spamcop, but I stick around because I find the whole subject of spam fighting to be fascinating.  And IMHO, the newbie needs an advocate.

I'm with you on that one, Miss Betsy.

I have used the 'net for nearly 12 years now, but I still have to learn a lot about some things (and I've been learning an awful lot about spam over the last month or so).

One of the things I have yet to learn is how to reply to a newsgroup posting in a way that does not include your eMail address for spammers to pick up and read. (On Outlook Express I also have to read one message at a time and have not yet worked out how, if?, I can download them!). So, I very much appreciate having a web forum.

In terms of personalities, I had a week long lesson with two abrasive personalities on a 4 day training course recently. One I knew from long back, and just accepted that was the way they were, the other I ended up not speaking to, unless absolutely necessary! I learnt the hard way that any sentence that contains the word "you" can be seen as inflamatory, just as their talking too much about "me" seems selfish and overbearing. It's all in the perception - and everyone wears different glasses! Sheesh, people are complex, give me a computer anytime!

I can only hope to aspire to Miss Betsy's level of conciseness and "politesse" (as the French say).

[Miss Betsy]

One of the things I have yet to learn is how to reply to a newsgroup posting in a way that does not include your eMail address for spammers to pick up and read. (On Outlook Express I also have to read one message at a time and have not yet worked out how, if?, I can download them!). So, I very much appreciate having a web forum.

You go to Tools->Accounts-> highlight the one you are using->Properties and on the first page you can enter anything you like - some people use "Lumber Cartel" for the organization or other nonsense. nobody [at] spamcop.net is the default and you are not supposed to make one up because somebody somewhere might choose that one sometime (or it might already be in existence) You don't have to fill them all in - just the name (GreenLady) and the email address (nobodyetc)

I think once you open a post, you have downloaded it. I am not quite sure what you are doing - did I mention I was tired? When I did it, OE wanted to download 100 headers. Once you do that, then you pick which message to download and read.

The newsgroups are much more fun! The forum is good for question/answer exchanges. Though it took me a lot of trial and error before I got the hang of the newsgroup.

Miss Betsy