Forums vs. Newsgroups

[MyNameHere]

This morning I was introduced to Plaxo and I thought, surely the SpamCop forum would have a discussion or two on this. But I found out there has been none here. On the other hand, the newsgroups have over 200 entries on the topic.

This led me to wonder (again) why we have to have two independent methods of peer-to-peer support. (I know there are historical reasons, but moving forward...)

I personally hate newsgroups (not SpamCop in particular, but all of them) mainly because they're difficult to search and the tools I have for working with them are cumbersome. I think web-based forum tools like vBulletin are far easier to use and search.

But I'm sure there are equally passionate newsgroup fans out there, who hate the web forum style of life.

Still, just based on this small experience, it appears that the SpamCop newsgroups are far and away more frequently used than the web forum. Or is that an illusion?

The solution I want to ask about is the one I recently saw at the Horde forum (bugs.horde.org). It appears that the web forum essentially mirrors the Horde newsgroups.

Why couldn't the SpamCop web forum mirror the newsgroups? I would really love to have easy access to the newsgroup threads without having to use two separate systems and without having to nagrivate with Outlook or OE.

(Alternately, does anyone have recommendations for a better newsreader?)

[Jeff G.]

A good solution for mirroring the web forum, newsgroups, and mailing lists has not been found and opened for testing, let alone implemented, and JT continues to be very busy. In the meantime, due to the high correlation between newsgroup aficionados and advanced users, the advanced discussions have been left in the newsgroups (and their mirrored mailing lists), the spamcop.help and spamcop.mail newsgroups have had their death knells, and the less advanced users and discussions have been pointed to the web forum.

I use OE6 for light newsgroup access (including sent mail integration with the rest of OE6), and have used Xnews for heavier newsgroup access in the past (including construction of binaries from multiple posts).

[Merlyn]

This morning I was introduced to Plaxo and I thought, surely the SpamCop forum would have a discussion or two on this. But I found out there has been none here. On the other hand, the newsgroups have over 200 entries on the topic.

33230[/snapback]

Plaxo, that's a name I haven't heard in a long time. Probably because they are blocked on our servers and always will be :-)

[Wazoo]

This morning I was introduced to Plaxo and I thought, surely the SpamCop forum would have a discussion or two on this. But I found out there has been none here.

And noting that this one will also be hard to notice by future readers as the Subject Line doesn't mention that "fine" tool ....

On the other hand, the newsgroups have over 200 entries on the topic.

Technically, "newsgroups" is a bit nebulous. Like Merlyn, I haven't seen it brought up in such a long time that I'd find it odd that is was showing up in the current displayed newsgroup threads. On the other hand, if you are including the newsgroup archives .... those date back to somewhere around 2000, whereas this Forum isn't yet two years old.

I personally hate newsgroups (not SpamCop in particular, but all of them) mainly because they're difficult to search and the tools I have for working with them are cumbersome. I think web-based forum tools like vBulletin are far easier to use and search.

Technical issues abound. Searching of newsgroup data for instance is only of any value if you have access to the complete body/source of all the posts. Your standard newsreader (configuration) generally just pulls down the headers to display the Subject line, downloading the actual post body when you "look" at the post. For 'real' data search and manipulation, one would want to actually set up a news-server to actually pull in the complete newsfeed, thus having all data available (and getting around retention rates). Most folks aren't going to do that, disk space being one 'excuse' ...

This led me to wonder (again) why we have to have two independent methods of peer-to-peer support. (I know there are historical reasons, but moving forward...)

But I'm sure there are equally passionate newsgroup fans out there, who hate the web forum style of life.

I've linked to the newsgroup archives before of conversations dating back to when JT first brought up the Forum support concept. Some of that anumosity has never disapeeared. Some other links;

http://news.spamcop.net/pipermail/spamcop-...read.html#14806

http://news.spamcop.net/pipermail/spamcop-...read.html#12905

Still, just based on this small experience, it appears that the SpamCop newsgroups are far and away more frequently used than the web forum. Or is that an illusion?

Possibly comparing apples to oranges. If one was to only look at the number of questions, I don't think that theres much of a difference between the two areas, though leaning towards that the Forum has been a but more active. On the other hand, the number of posts and post content is a bit different. Here in the Forum, we don't have the "stop top-posting" conversations, the long explanations of things in the newsgroups that get handled by a FAQ link here, Moderators that do moderate, and posts are split into the separate Forum sections as compared to the current mode of most folks posting anything and everything into the spamcop newsgroup.

The solution I want to ask about is the one I recently saw at the Horde forum (bugs.horde.org). It appears that the web forum essentially mirrors the Horde newsgroups.

Why couldn't the SpamCop web forum mirror the newsgroups? I would really love to have easy access to the newsgroup threads without having to use two separate systems and without having to nagrivate with Outlook or OE.

33230[/snapback]

Forum mirror the newsgroups? ---> got program? The reference to bugs.horde I don't recall actually doing this, my recollections was that one was basically am index which took you to the other for content (but I'll go back and look again) ...

There is yet another scenario ... RSS code has been much improved in the 2.1 version of this app, so there may be something to working up an RSS feed from here, but .... yet another tool to learn/complain about/etc...

[Merlyn]

And noting that this one will also be hard to notice by future readers as the Subject Line doesn't mention that "fine" tool ....

33268[/snapback]

Oh Wazoo, you are so diplomatic

Technically, "newsgroups" is a bit nebulous.  Like Merlyn, I haven't seen it brought up in such a long time that I'd find it odd that is was showing up in the current displayed newsgroup threads.  On the other hand, if you are including the newsgroup archives .... those date back to somewhere around 2000, whereas this Forum isn't yet two years old.

33268[/snapback]

Here is some stuff I found using spamcop/google sitesearch

http://www.google.com/custom?hl=en&lr=&ie=...ews.spamcop.net

[Wazoo]

Oh Wazoo, you are so diplomatic 

I can think right now of a half-dozen folks I haven't heard from since receiving my not-so-diplomatic response at receiving an "invite" for a couple of tools like this <g> "Keep in touch forever" my ***

Here is some stuff I found using spamcop/google sitesearch

http://www.google.com/custom?hl=en&lr=&ie=...ews.spamcop.net

33270[/snapback]

Yeah, back in 2003 ... whoa! forgot about Miss Betsy's Ringo question that brought it back up, but even that looks old enough to have disappeared from the 'active' newsgroup discussions. Thanks for the research.

[MyNameHere]

And noting that this one will also be hard to notice by future readers as the Subject Line doesn't mention that "fine" tool ....

33268[/snapback]

Wazoo, I just had to come back at you on this.... my OP was not about Plaxo, which is why I didn't include it in the title. Plaxo was just the trigger for my musings on forums versus newsgroups.

And, actually, it will be terribly easy to find this thread in the future... just do a forum search on "plaxo" and it will pop right up. Unfortunately, since this isn't about Plaxo.

But thanks for the thoughts on forums and newsgroups.

[turetzsr]

<snip>

Forum mirror the newsgroups? ---> got program?

<snip>

33268[/snapback]

...Not just the program -- also the resources to run it, configure it, maintain it, administer it, co-ordinate with JT when necessary, investigate the “why didn’t my forum post make it to the newsgroup” and “why didn’t my newsgroup post make it to the for forum” complaints .... <g>

[Wazoo]

And it continues ..

From: "Mike Easter" <MikeE[at]ster.invalid>

Newsgroups: spamcop

Subject: Re: Configure External Carriers

Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2006 19:20:15 -0700

Message-ID: <e19r0p$au3$1[at]news.spamcop.net>

References: <e19dsh$3o3$1[at]news.spamcop.net> <e19h2r$5pf$1[at]news.spamcop.net> <e19jbb$724$1[at]news.spamcop.net>

JA wrote:

> Mike Easter wrote:

>>> I have a number of hotmail accounts, and some of them keep getting

>>> invalid password and others are OK.

> When go spamcop mailbox and click on options and then

> click on spamcop tools and then configure external pop servers so

> thst spamcop will get the mail from those servers, for some of the

> hotmail accounts get error message pf invalid password even though

> everything is correct - it is only with some of the hotmail accounts

> - even deleted them and re-entered and still the same - that is why

> it is confusing.

Oh, this is a spamcop mail subscriber question.  You are posting into

the wrong ng, whereas spamcop and spamcop.help are for general

non-spamcopmail questions.  The support area preferred by those SC

admins who are supporting spamcop mail is the webforum

http://forum.spamcop.net/forums/index.php?showforum=4  SpamCop Email

System & Accounts

If you don't like webforums, which I don't, then the secondary area of

support for mail is the spamcop ng spamcop.mail -- which is stealthed

and hidden from exposure on the appropriate faq page at

http://www.spamcop.net/help.shtml  Help Options

but which can be reached with news://spamcop.news.net/spamcop.mail

Too bad that is missing from the appropriate page.  Too bad nobody wants

to fix it.

The powers that be still don't understand properly how to balance

support between a webbased wiki faq and newsgroups.  They could learn a

lot from other who do a much better job of integrating a website with a

specialty newsserver such as grc.com and news.grc.com or from the big8

management board website's wiki for enhancing the functions of numerous

newsgroups such as news.groups and the moderated

news.announce.newsgroups.

There are tons of examples of support which have a good wiki instead of

a php board doing a bad job trying to take the place of a perfectly good

newsserver and its groups and also performing poorly as a wiki.  The

webforum is inferior to the nntp news, and the webforum is also inferior

to a proper wiki for stickies or dynamic faq enhancement.  There are

those who put a lot of time and trouble into the webforum, which sucks,

and which should be replaced by a wiki so that the time and trouble

isn't so difficult and so wasted.

If there are 3 functions to be derived, providing a posting interface

for those who can't nntp, providing a wiki kind of faq, and providing a

robust dialog exchange -- that should be provided by a web based input

to the nntp, such as grc.com and a wiki which are numerous -- not a

crude and clumsy php board which was designed for some other purpose and

whose popularity is based strictly on those who are incompetent to nntp.

--

Mike Easter

kibitzer, not SC admin

[Wazoo]

To which I replied (and sent an e-mail later on, repeating the 'invite')

From: "WazoO" <nobody[at]devnull.spamcop.net>

Newsgroups: spamcop

Subject: Re: Configure External Carriers

Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2006 11:00:52 -0500

Message-ID: <e1bb3k$37m$1[at]news.spamcop.net>

References: <e19dsh$3o3$1[at]news.spamcop.net> <e19h2r$5pf$1[at]news.spamcop.net> <e19jbb$724$1[at]news.spamcop.net> <e19r0p$au3$1[at]news.spamcop.net>

"Mike Easter" <MikeE[at]ster.invalid> wrote in message

news:e19r0p$au3$1[at]news.spamcop.net...

>

> There are tons of examples of support which have a good wiki instead of

> a php board doing a bad job trying to take the place of a perfectly good

> newsserver and its groups and also performing poorly as a wiki.  The

> webforum is inferior to the nntp news, and the webforum is also inferior

> to a proper wiki for stickies or dynamic faq enhancement.

I have to challenge the "dynamic FAQ enhancement" phrase.  The

alternative view I created in the Forum (and the additional attempts at

providing other interfaces) is set up in a Forum titled FAQ Development ...

Input has always been requested, allowed, and encouraged.  In addition,

I created the "How to ...." Forum section for tutorials, even another

section such that folks could also add in those 'use of research tools'

that even you keep pulling up here.  I'm sorry that so few choose to

participate in the development of that data.

As far as a Wiki goes, let me remind you that I asked you directly to

hop in and help with the one I installed.  I don't yet see your name in

the user list on that tool.

>  There are

> those who put a lot of time and trouble into the webforum, which sucks,

> and which should be replaced by a wiki so that the time and trouble

> isn't so difficult and so wasted.

The same folks that help hold the Forum together are the ones involved

in the other tools I've put in place.  There's a Glossary, a Dictionary,

a number of alternative FAQ type tools I've attempted to put in place,

to include a Wiki.  Once again, it's too bad that so few others want to

get involved with that development.

> If there are 3 functions to be derived, providing a posting interface

> for those who can't nntp, providing a wiki kind of faq, and providing a

> robust dialog exchange -- that should be provided by a web based input

> to the nntp, such as grc.com and a wiki which are numerous -- not a

> crude and clumsy php board which was designed for some other purpose and

> whose popularity is based strictly on those who are incompetent to nntp.

Some folks point out that the office blocks NNTP access.  The original

point that JT made was that support for the web-based e-mail tool was moving

to a web-based vehicle.  That web-based support tool has been blown out to

allow for the support of the rest of the SpamCop.net tool-set for any that

care to make their way there.  Some of the other issues 'handled' by the Forum

is that (thus far) the total history of traffic is there, as compared to the aging off

in the newsgroups, with not all posts captured in the archives die to some using

the X:No-archive flag in their newsgroup posts.  Note also that there are Forum

users that refuse to use the newsgroups for just the same reasons, for other reasons, and they are just as vocal about their views.

The continued bitching about the powers that be and the lack of updates, changes,

etc. in portions of the support arena seems to be a waste of time .... yet stuff goes

on elsewhere on a daily basis.  The "official" stand these days is that IronPort

doesn't fully sanction the user-to-user support venue, which includes both the

newsgroups and the Forum.  That the 'official' staff is only Ellen, Don, and RW

kind of indicates that without the user-to-user thing going on, there'd be yet

more serious issues involved.  There's a hardware maintenance crew at the

IronPort site, but it's obvious that they don't talk to the Deputies on a routine

basis.  There's a programming staff, but ... as when Julian was doing it alone,

there's no feedback or public disclosure vehicle on what's actually going on.

[Miss Betsy]

My perspective is that those who care are working with what is available. Wazoo and others monitor both the ngs and the forum and help where they can.

It is too bad that there is so little communication among those who understand or care. But that's what's wrong with the world.

Miss Betsy

[dra007]

Now, now, we would fix it if we knew what was wrong with the world, wouldn't we?

[Miss Betsy]

After a particularly bad Monday, that comment sure puts things in perspective!

Miss Betsy

[Wazoo]

Here we go again .... a (free reporing?) user asks a question .. a bunch of wild answers, specific suggestion made, which leads to "where is the data" .. first reply tries to send this user to a "mailsc" page, so of course the next reply is "name/passowrd" screen issues ... a few more replues in both directions, pointers to the "official / original" FAQ which .. you guessed it .. doesn't have any data on the subject .... on and on ....

http://news.spamcop.net/pipermail/spamcop-...ead.html#111857 of you want to follow the thread ...

My first reply;

From: "WazoO"

Newsgroups: spamcop

Subject: Re: Automated reporting

Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 16:01:12 -0500

Message-ID: <e5q8uo$rj9$1[at]news.spamcop.net>

References: <e5pqqt$i0f$1[at]news.spamcop.net> <e5pt8f$jdu$1[at]news.spamcop.net> <e5ptgi$jnn$1[at]news.spamcop.net> <e5q1cj$mov$1[at]news.spamcop.net> <e5q1hg$muj$1[at]news.spamcop.net> <e5q3qq$of1$1[at]news.spamcop.net> <e5q4ta$p2h$1[at]news.spamcop.net> <e5q5fa$pf1$1[at]news.spamcop.net>

"Jason Ward" wrote in message

news:e5q5fa$pf1$1[at]news.spamcop.net...

> "Tim McGraw" wrote in message

> news:e5q4ta$p2h$1[at]news.spamcop.net...

> >

> > With all due respect, you could search there until the cows come home and

> > you won't find anything about the quick submit function.

> >

> > And I believe that is by design. It's probably tough enough to keep the

> > lid on regular VER.

Damn this gets old. The SpamCop.net "e-mail" stuff is handled by JT out in

Georgia .. as compared to IronPort systems in California. JT's desire is to

handle SpamCop.net e-mail account stuff via the Forum.

http://forum.spamcop.net/ The single-page access to another much expanded

version of the SpamCop FAQ exists there. (albeit admitting that the Forum

has just had a major revamping of software and things aren't all back to where

they were a month ago ...)

If you want to visit the old/original pages for a SpamCop.net e-mail account

that actually ties into JT's data, http://mail.spamcop.net/ is the place ...

but noting that the single-page form incorporates both the www.spamcop.net and

http://mail.spamcop.net/ stuff ... plus all the extra added in by other users ....

> Also there is nothing there about MX records and using your own domains with

> SpamCop mail service.

MX Records are specifically mentioned on http://mail.spamcop.net/smallbiz.php

> Have looked at most of the documents there I would say SpamCop do not

> support people point their domain MX records at their mailservers and if

> they do support that they really don't want people to know.

The "official / original" FAQ has been complained about for years. Those

doing the complaining seem not to want to actually get their hands dirty

working on an / the alternative. I'm on my sixth or seventh alternative "access to

data" but ..... I still get attacked for "trying to destroy the newsgroups"

...????

> Without MX support I just could not use SpamCops mail service, for me it

> would be like a chocolate fire guard.

Technically, said without seeing the data that does exist .... but that's up

to you ...

My second Reply;

From: "WazoO"

Newsgroups: spamcop

Subject: Re: Automated reporting

Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 17:39:35 -0500

Message-ID: <e5qen7$vaj$1[at]news.spamcop.net>

References: <e5pqqt$i0f$1[at]news.spamcop.net> <e5pt8f$jdu$1[at]news.spamcop.net> <e5ptgi$jnn$1[at]news.spamcop.net> <e5q1cj$mov$1[at]news.spamcop.net> <e5q1hg$muj$1[at]news.spamcop.net> <e5q3qq$of1$1[at]news.spamcop.net> <e5q4ta$p2h$1[at]news.spamcop.net> <e5q5fa$pf1$1[at]news.spamcop.net> <e5q8uo$rj9$1[at]news.spamcop.net> <e5qbre$trb$1[at]news.spamcop.net>

"Tim McGraw" wrote in message

news:e5qbre$trb$1[at]news.spamcop.net...

> WazoO wrote:

> >

> > Damn this gets old. The SpamCop.net "e-mail" stuff is handled by JT out in

> > Georgia .. as compared to IronPort systems in California. JT's desire is to

> > handle SpamCop.net e-mail account stuff via the Forum.

>

> What does VER and quick submissions have to do with the email system,

> other than they will traverse through JT's wire?

>

> Those ARE spamcop issues.

The only existing place to find "any" FAQ data on that stuff is on

the Forum server, owned and maintained by JT .... and I'm the

guy he turned loose on that server, and that's the reason that the

data "does" exist there ....

I did the single-page thing on a Saturday morning whim .. I started a

Glossary, added in a Dictionary tool for another view on that, I've

installed 4 separate FAQ software tools that didn't fly, added in a

FAQ modification to the 2.0.4 version of the Forum software that

worked very well (but that tool didn't make the transition to the

new Forum version) ... I've got a Wiki in place (just not ready to

go public .. in fact, I'm running a Beta of that software as another

install, just released a few days ago, according to the e-mail that

asked if I'd volunteer, "we" are one of three places doing the Beta test.)

As I've stated many times over the last couple of years, the tools are

there .... what the problem in using them, referring to them is, I can't

figure it out. Yeah, there's the HTML argument, but geeze ....data is

data ... I use newsgroups, mailing lists, forums, Wikis, whatever it takes

if that's where the answers are. My attempts at getting the "official" FAQ

updated / corrected have had success in some places, rejections in others,

totally ignored in some cases ... but the version(s) I'm taking responsibility

for are updated constantly, stuff added continuously, and input is accepted

from whereever it comes from ....

[Wazoo]

[spamCop-List] phpBB vs NNTP

From: "WazoO"

Newsgroups: spamcop

Subject: Re: phpBB vs NNTP

Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 20:17:31 -0500

Message-ID: <e5qnvb$4nq$1[at]news.spamcop.net>

References: <e5qi66$1cj$1[at]news.spamcop.net>

"Tim McGraw" wrote in message

news:e5qi66$1cj$1[at]news.spamcop.net...

>

Re: Subject Line: .. the Forum application used is not PhpBB ... JT spent

the bucks on a commercial application. And I'll also add that he offered

to "buy" some FAQ software a long while back ... tresponse was totally

uderwhelming .. yet the complaints about "the FAQ" have continued ....

> It's not that I don't appreciate all you and others have done... I guess

> I'm just an old-fashioned plain text guy. Too many goo-ga's and

> doo-dad's... grumble grumble... HTML... why, when I was you're age we

> didn't have no wikis, and we LIKED it!

Again, I took advatage of the opportunity and ran with it. I'm the one that

took the risk and installed these other tools. The history was that I didn't

volunteer when when his request went out, as I didn't want to spend time

in yet another gorum. However, no one else was in there answering questions.

Jeff G. stood up first and he gave it a mighty shot ...but was eventually

overwhelmed. I was asked to help Moderate .. did that ...

Complaints started, complaints mounted, issues came up ... JT moved me

into the Admin slot so I could twiddle some bits amd make some (turning out

to be massive) changes. Then to make even more changes, server access

was granted. Then even sudo powers arrived so I could make more changes.

Thus began my adding of other tools to the mix .... some left me in the

position that only I could enter data, make changes, other things have been

picked up and extended by other volunteer folks, and the changes just

keep coming.

Once upon a time, the FAQ-o-Matic was useable by just about anyone, but ...

so few took advantage of the opportunity. Then it was closed off for acess

but to the team of Deputies and Julian himself .. maybe six or seven people

back then ... then the maintenance dropped to basically just RW ... and now

that IronPort is involved, the "legal team" is involved in any change there.

Whereas, the Forum is not owned, run, or maintained by any of the paid

staff. Thus far, I've been allowed to run with what I haven't screwed up

...

I've got some great folks helping out where they can, some openly, some

in the background, but again, things can happen there quickly ....

> Here's some real-world flava. I've been trying to get JT's attention for

> six weeks because the optional BCCs under identities just don't work.

>

> To contact him I've tried filling out the form at

> http://www.cesmail.net/contact.php. I've tried sending email. He doesn't

> respond.

Don't feel like the lone ranger ..... part of the background on my installing

other tools "without permission" is baed on the same scenario .... He is a busy

guy, travels a bit, and in all fairness, also gets an alarming amount of e-mail

from folks that dinf his address and bitch about BL issues, reporting

issues, etc. ... which he has no control over (that all being the IronPort side)

I've probably made 50 phone calls to notify of an issue, server down and such ...

and have actually only caught him at the phine once ....usually just manage to

leave a message for him ...

> If I have to go to the forums and create a user account to get JT's

> attention when I'm already a customer (and have been a customer of

> spamcop since '98) that will NOT be a happy post.

In all honesty, JT spends about as much time (maybe less) in the Forum as

the Deputies do here .....on the other hand, if I can feed him enough data

(in a short e-mail) I'll usually get a turn-around in a day or two on that specific

item ....but like this post, my e-mails aren't usually "short" .. so he admits that

they get backburnered till he can get around to digesting it, and eventually,

it falls off the backburner <g>

Bottom line, it it's any help ... short e-mail, all facts needed in that e-mail,

and cross your fingers .... the actual applications are commercial software,

some requested things aren't available in those packages ... the support

Forums for those packages are in the (Forum) version of the SpamCop FAQ

such that those requests, issues, etc. can be taken to those developers

directly ...

A year or so back, he installed a Beta thing to look at another application

...

if you don't know anything about the Forum contents, I'll assume that you

don't know about that event ....

The whole issue isn't about "the Forum" or the newsgroups .... it's about

"the FAQ" .... the one at www.spamcop.net has been an issue for years.

I've tried to offer alternative after alternative, but folks keep getting

wrapped around the spokes over the word "Forum" ... and apparently

that all the links include "forum" in the URL .... once again, that's the

server I have access to .. end of that tune ...

[ArielHost]

People still read newsgroups?

Just kidding. But seriously, when someone looks for support for something, they are going to go to spamcop.net and see if there is a forum. I doubt the average user is going to know that the newsgroup even exists. Personally, I haven't looked at it since this forum was installed. The pinned topics and annoucements are great - all of the information is here, and it's easily searched.

[dbiel]

People still read newsgroups?

Thank you for the kind words about the Forums. And as to your question about newsgroups, the SpamCop Newsgroups are still alive and well. The have their own set of unofficial moderators including Mike Easter who unfortunately has no use for the SpamCop forums. Wazoo is also quite active in the newsgroups as well. Some people prefer newsgroups, some people prefer forums. They both serve a useful purpose.

As far as www.spamcop.net goes; even though the help titles might suggest that there is no newsgroup

Help | Site Map

Report spam Filtered Email Blocking List Statistics Login

Help Options: FAQ | Search | Forums

The Forums link references both forums and newsgroups. But it remains, as it has for ages, incomplete and inacurate; but to get it fixed seems to be an impossible task. The forum link pulls up the following information:

Web-based Bulletin Boards

Use the bulletin boards to communicate directly with other SpamCop users.

Index of all forums

General help. Have trouble using SpamCop? Wonder if you are listed on the SpamCop blocking list?

Email help. Need help with a spamcop.net email account?

Mailhosts System. Have problems with the new Mailhosts verification system?

Please read the 'Pinned' items at the top of each bulletin board before posting.

Newsgroups

SpamCop newsgroups capture discussions on an ongoing-basis. Follow the link to launch and subscribe to a newsgroup. Alternatively, use the WebTV links to launch that format. Description Delivery Method

SpamCop (spamcop) General Discussion of spam and SpamCop. NNTP WebTV

Geek talk (spamcop.geeks) Geeky issues not related to spam or SpamCop. NNTP WebTV

Social room (spamcop.social) Anything that doesn't fit in the other groups. NNTP WebTV

spam lab (spamcop.spam) Posting and discussion of specific spam - often contains de-obfuscation 'workshops'. NNTP WebTV

Key differences, which remains a real bone of contention with the newsgroup supporters is that there is a link "Index of all forums" which takes one to the entire list of forums; while only a small selected group of newsgroups are listed. A link to the entire set of newsgroups does appear in the forum main tool bar.

But to say that we in the forums are happy with the links found at www.spamcop.net would be wrong.

The following link is a real pain for us

General help. Have trouble using SpamCop? Wonder if you are listed on the SpamCop blocking list?

as it takes the user looking for Reporting help as well as Block list help to the SpamCop Reporting Help forum. Where as those needing Blocking list help are better served in the SpamCop Blocklist Help Forum, but more specifically, those interested in the state question following the link: "Wonder if you are listed on the SpamCop blocking list?" should be directed to How can I check if an IP is on the list? in the Official FAQ as it provides both information on how to access the information from a command line prompt as well as a web lookup form.

So it remains that no one in the newsgroups or the forums are happy with the Official FAQ. The main difference is that in the Forums we are trying to create a more complete and up to date version of the FAQ while in the newsgroups they rather just keep complaining about the official version which seems to be impossible to get updated.

Now to get off my soap box.

Thank you again for your kind words about the forum. If you have any suggestions on how it can be improved, we are always open and willing to hear them.

[Wazoo]

Thank you for the kind words about the Forums. And as to your question about newsgroups, the SpamCop Newsgroups are still alive and well.

Posted most of these last two items into the spamcop newsgroup today, with a bit of a lead-in ....

From: "WazoO"

Newsgroups: spamcop

Subject: Newsgroups, Forum, future status?

Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 16:11:45 -0500

Message-ID: <e7s6uh$dnv$1[at]news.spamcop.net>

For those of you that missed the last heads-up, the archiving of

the spamcop newsgroups ground to a halt a while back. I sent

a note asking JT to kick the code into action again, but it turns

out that the current issue is that the drive used to hold those

archives is now full. I asked him not to kill off the oldest

archives in hopes I could work something else out. However,

as a couple of weeks has now gone by, it may appear that a

new bigger hard drive may not be in the plans.

There is currently drive space available on the Forum server, but ...

the history of the panic, dismay, hatred, etc.everytime the Forum

comes up in the newsgroups sure doesn't help in the background

conversations.

Recent bit of exchange in a Forum Topic, seen at (the end of)

http://forum.spamcop.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=4994

The previous posts, with a bit of editing for the newsgroup layout, follows this ....

[dbiel]

And one of the replies from Mike Easter

WazoO wrote:

> Recent bit of exchange in a Forum Topic, seen at (the end of)

> http://forum.spamcop.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=4994

Temporarily diverting from the fact that a discussion in the newsgroups

isn't likely to sway JT re how he allocates his resources, I will stay

on focus on this last discussion, which didn't format very well here

with the earlier post.

<AH> when someone looks for support for something, they are going to go

to spamcop.net and see if there is a forum. I doubt the average user is

going to know that the newsgroup even exists. Personally, I haven't

looked at it since this forum was installed.

Dbiel's replies^1 made some demonstrations which won't work here, namely

how the 'Help' section is laid out.

http://snipurl.com/sf4d

<db> As far as www.spamcop.net goes; even though the help titles might

suggest that there is no newsgroup [demo]

then dbiel goes on to observe that the forum 'guide' to the newsgroups

is better but still stealths mail and help groups. Then dbiel has a

different gripe about how one line in the faq doesn't point optimally to

the right section of the forum.

Overall, a point he makes is:

<db> So it remains that no one in the newsgroups or the forums are happy

with the Official FAQ. The main difference is that in the Forums we are

trying to create a more complete and up to date version of the FAQ while

in the newsgroups they rather just keep complaining about the official

version which seems to be impossible to get updated.

I don't know that I would characterize the ng gripes about the resource

allocation in that way. I would agree that in the forums there is an

effort to provide some orderly access to faq-like information while

answering questions there.

But I still maintain that it is a legitimate beef for the newsgroup

supporters to argue that efforts are being made to 'deprecate' the

newsgroups and the newsgroup support. Even tho' some web faq updating

seems 'impossible' -- there was no problem with using modifications of

the faq to deprecate the newsgroups by stealthing and hiding them on the

faq pages. All of the newsgroup support should be just as easy to find

in the faq as it should be easy to find in the forum.

So the deprecation of the newsgroups is done by resource allocation and

by obscuring the ng/s in both the web faq and support pages as well as

the forum references to the ng/s. Those are administrative decisions

that those of us who are mere participants in the ng/s have no control

over.--

Mike Easter

kibitzer, not SC admin

The last paragraph, which I highlighted in red, bothers me a bit; but remembering that Mike Easter seems to believe that there is only ONE FAQ and that is the official FAQ, his reference to the "web faq" and "forum references to the ng/s" may only be referring back to the official FAQ and not to the Forums as we know them. For the forum references to the newsgroups does not obscure any of the newsgroups,but rather opens up the entire list of newsgroups.

As far as official support for the newsgroups verses forums, that is a mixed bag. There seems to be very little involvement in either the newsgroups or the forums by the paid SpamCop staff. Yet when it comes to making announcements, the paid staff will generally only post them in the newsgroups and then someone (usually Wazoo) will happen to find the announcement and them post copy of it in the forums. So from that perspective I would say that there seems to be more official support for the newsgroups than for the forums.

I would agree with Mike Easter's quote

But I still maintain that it is a legitimate beef for the newsgroup supporters to argue that efforts are being made to 'deprecate' the newsgroups and the newsgroup support.

at least in terms of the effect of failing to provide a link to all of the newsgroups. The problem is that no one on the paid staff seems to care or be willing to do anything about it.

So where does that leave us (forum and/or newsgroup) users. The only choice seems to be to try to create an alternative. That is where I just can not follow the thinking of the newsgroup users. They seem to be unwilling (or more likely unable simply because of the structure and limitations of the newsgroups) to try to develop an alternative with in the newsgroups, but at the same time have nothing be contempt for us who are trying to do so in the web based world. They seem content with having and point to an official web based FAQ (that is totally out of date (which they as well as us frequently complain about) but refuse to have anything to do with or participate in the unofficial work to build a better FAQ simply because it is "forum" or "Wiki" based.

So my question to the newsgroups users is: What is your solution to the problem? and don't say "Fix the official FAQ" we have tried, you have tried, it just seems impossible to get any official support for that.

[Miss Betsy]

I don't know why there is even a topic 'Forums vs Newsgroups' - IIRC, the original objection to the Forum was that JT didn't implement the one that people had recommended besides the objections of those who prefer ngs to forums.

However, as dbiel points out the participants in either group are simply users or, even just interested people, who are trying to either give information or get information. There should be no animosity between the users of either the ngs or the forum. Anyone can go either place that is preferable (except for email help, I think).

I think, from my experience, the TPTB don't like the use of FAQ except for the 'official' FAQ. I don't know why they have never objected to the use in the Forum - possibly because it is called 'Original FAQ plus'? Mike Easter seems to agree that only the official FAQ should be called FAQ and that's perhaps a valid point.

If some ng posters make fun of the forum or refuse to reference people to it when there is a forum entry that does answer the question, that's their thing. Fortunately there are some people who do look at both places so if there is anything really important, it does manage to get posted both places. Otherwise, it is just a personal preference where one posts or how one answers a question. If someone who frequents both, wants to answer a question in the ng with a pointer to a forum FAQ found in the forum, then I don't see that it is a slam on the ngs or if someone wants to answer the question by typing the answer individually, I don't see that as a slam on the forum.

Since I haven't followed all the posts over the months on this, perhaps I am missing something.

Miss Betsy

[dbiel]

Anyone can go either place that is preferable (except for email help, I think).

Actually that is part of the problem. The news group spamcop.mail is still alive even though a lot of people think that it was been replaced by the forums. It is kind of funny that the only place that it does get referenced to is from within the Web based SpamCop Forums and related Wiki.

The following is copied from the SpamCop Wiki which is currently under developement:

SpamCop Newsgroups

The SpamCop Newsgroups are one of the oldest methods of getting information about SpamCop. They are still very much alive and active. They are accessed using any standard newsreader. They may be found at "news://news.spamcop.net/" Copying the address and pasting it into your browser will open up your default newsreader. (Note: this Wiki does not permit embeding clickable links to newsgroups) The newsgroups currently consist of the following groups:

control

control.cancel

spamcop

spamcop.geeks

spamcop.help

spamcop.mail

spamcop.routing (currently the primary contact for routing issues)

spamcop.social

spamcop.spam

spamcop.test

Alternate sources of information are: the SpamCopForum and of course (the newest) this Wiki.

Note: a new FAQ entry has been created including the above information and a link to it has been added to the main FAQ listing.

[Miss Betsy]

That was a good idea!

Since I am not an email service user, I didn't know that anyone was still using it. Though I do know that the spamcop ng is alive and active.

The only advantage the forum has over the ng is that we do have previous topics to refer to if we want to instead of re-typing the same kind of information. And, I haven't had a chance to visit the ngs for a while but sometimes the exchanges there are much more interesting from a human interest viewpoint than they are here <g>. It is a lot easier to carry on a 'conversation' there.

Miss Betsy

[turetzsr]

Actually that is part of the problem. The news group spamcop.mail is still alive even though a lot of people think that it was been replaced by the forums.

<snip>

...IIUC, JT has decided that he will no longer provide support via the newsgroup. However, there's nothing to stop user-to-user communication in that ng (until JT removes the ng entirely, should he decide to do that, which AFAIK he has shown no inclination to do, although now with the disc pack having gotten full ...).

[dbiel]

...IIUC, JT has decided that he will no longer provide support via the newsgroup.

When was the last time you saw JT provide email support in the Forums? Last post was Posted on: Dec 1 2005, 09:08 PM PST and the next most recent post was Posted on: Feb 9 2005, 07:54 PM PST

Also remember that ALL newsgroups are hosted on JT's server. So the fact that the mail newsgroup still exists would imply that it is a "supported" source of information.

Both the Forums and Newsgroups are unofficial sources of information with support coming from volunteer users.

[turetzsr]

When was the last time you saw JT provide email support in the Forums? Last post was Posted on: Dec 1 2005, 09:08 PM PST and the next most recent post was Posted on: Feb 9 2005, 07:54 PM PST

...When was the last time he needed to provide support (because an e-mail problem failed to be handled by one of us or via alternate communication between user and JT)? <g>

Also remember that ALL newsgroups are hosted on JT's server. So the fact that the mail newsgroup still exists would imply that it is a "supported" source of information.

...It implies that it is at least a tolerated medium for user-to-user support but that toleration can end at any moment.

Both the Forums and Newsgroups are unofficial sources of information with support coming from volunteer users.

...Agreed. The E-mail Forum is also the locus of "official" e-mail support (if deemed necessary plus if time is available to provide "electronic" support).