Flynn Posted March 29, 2004 Share Posted March 29, 2004 I just registered with a web site in order to order some PC parts from it, and used my spamcop.net email address to do so. NOWHERE on their registration form did it say anything about receiving emails about their latest 'deals', but within a few days, I got exactly that. There's nothing on their web site about opting out of emails like this, nor can I find any option to have my account deleted. They do need my email address in the event that there's any problem with the order I made, however. My question is- can I consider the emails they're sending me 'spam', and deal with them as such? Or given that I gave them my email address willingly, am I going to need to find another way to stop them? Thanks in advance, Flynn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turetzsr Posted March 29, 2004 Share Posted March 29, 2004 I just registered with a web site in order to order some PC parts from it, and used my spamcop.net email address to do so. NOWHERE on their registration form did it say anything about receiving emails about their latest 'deals', but within a few days, I got exactly that. There's nothing on their web site about opting out of emails like this, nor can I find any option to have my account deleted. They do need my email address in the event that there's any problem with the order I made, however. My question is- can I consider the emails they're sending me 'spam', and deal with them as such? Or given that I gave them my email address willingly, am I going to need to find another way to stop them? Thanks in advance, Flynn. Hi, Flynn, ...On the one hand, since you did not explicitly request the e-mails, I believe you are entitled to consider them to be spam. ...On the other hand, giving them your e-mail address may be considered implicit approval to send e-mails to that address. ...My suggestion would be to send them a polite communication asking them about this, asking them to take you off the list of those to whom they send such e-mail and suggesting that in future they require people who register with them as you did to opt-in in order to receive the e-mails, with the default condition being opt-out. If they do not reply in a reasonable time and continue to send you e-mails after a reasonable period, then you are certainly entitled to report these e-mails as spam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spambo Posted March 29, 2004 Share Posted March 29, 2004 [snip] My question is- can I consider the emails they're sending me 'spam', and deal with them as such? Or given that I gave them my email address willingly, am I going to need to find another way to stop them? Thanks in advance, Flynn. My suggestion is to cancel your order, report their spam as spam (anything from them not pertaining directly to your order or cancellation), and never buy from them again. The Boulder Pledge: "Under no circumstances will I ever purchase anything offered to me as the result of an unsolicited email message. Nor will I forward chain letters, petitions, mass mailings, or virus warnings to large numbers of others. This is my contribution to the survival of the online community." Roger Ebert (Movie Critic & Television Personality) at the Conference on World Affairs at the University of Colorado Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Betsy Posted March 29, 2004 Share Posted March 29, 2004 IMHO, one should persistently try to solve this without reporting via spamcop. You can send copies to their ISP of how you are trying to work this out. The reason that I would not report via spamcop is because I believe (note that is not a positive statement that I know this is true) that some ISP's would consider the emails NOT spam and would not do anything about it. And if you did manage to get them on the bl, they would be complaining that it was a mistake. It is not easy to get off mailing lists once you get on them. Sometimes they will tell you it will take up to 30 days. I have been getting a Trend Micro newsletter which I am sure is a mistake (I am not a customer). I have reported it to as many different places as I can think of and it is still coming. The one thing I won't do is unsubscribe. However, since you did order from them, if there is an unsubscribe, and you don't want to take the time to do everything else you could unsubscribe and just write a nasty letter to them and to their ISP. I like Spambo's advice to cancel your order. That makes very clear that you are unhappy about the emails. Also send emails to any email address you can find. People might be able to help with upstreams. HTH Miss Betsy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spambo Posted March 29, 2004 Share Posted March 29, 2004 [snip] The reason that I would not report via spamcop is because I believe (note that is not a positive statement that I know this is true) that some ISP's would consider the emails NOT spam and would not do anything about it. And if you did manage to get them on the bl, they would be complaining that it was a mistake. [snip] If they cannot produce a valid confirmation that the recipient has explicitly agreed to accept commercial or bulk email from them then they ARE spamming and the recipient has every right to report that spam through SpamCop. From http://www.spamcop.net/fom-serve/cache/167.html The sender must provide: The entire SpamCop report, including full headers and the entire spam Proof that the user in question did subscribe for your list. (Proof can be a log excerpt or a copy of the returned, e-mailed confirmation. There must be proof of a two-way, secure confirmation. This must include IPs and datestamps for two stages - both a signup and a confirmation.) in order to prove that they are not spamming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Betsy Posted March 29, 2004 Share Posted March 29, 2004 I understand that technically it is spam if I have not signed up - or even, to the best of my knowledge and belief, I have not requested email. However, as a practical matter, I believe that a disgruntled customer is more influential than being blacklisted. The point is to get them to stop spamming, not to prove that your definition is right. At some point, promising to report via spamcop might be a good idea, but I am still of the opinion that making noise *yourself* not through spamcop is a better way of handling this kind of problem. Definitely IMHO; the OP pays her money; takes her choice Miss Betsy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spambo Posted March 29, 2004 Share Posted March 29, 2004 [snip] However, as a practical matter, I believe that a disgruntled customer is more influential than being blacklisted. The point is to get them to stop spamming, not to prove that your definition is right. [snip] Obviously you've never had dealings with SpAmazon or Yahoo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Betsy Posted March 30, 2004 Share Posted March 30, 2004 Well, I had dealings with Target who is a lot worse than Amazon. And I had a long thread in spamcop with an ISP (whom I haven't seen around lately) arguing on whether it was spam or not. At about the same time, there was another guy who was doggedly reporting another vendor. The vendor came to the ng and told his side of the story. It was obvious that they thought they were in the right because he was a former customer. I finally gave up and unsubscribed from Target, but I did send a letter to corporate headquarters. There weren't enough disgruntled Target customers for my spamcop reports to put them on the bl. I really don't believe large corporations will comply (did you read the nasty twists that some web sites use so that if you don't read them very carefully you get signed up?) until there are a lot of people complaining directly to them and returning merchandise and writing to blogs, etc. They won't pay attention to spam reports because their unsubscribes do eventually work and they aren't spammers in the sense that they send the schlock that most people associate with spam now since most respectable businesses are very considerate about not sending you email you don't sign up for. OTOH, I don't object to those who stick by a strict definition of spam. It is one of those things that I don't think helps much either way or hurts much either way in the real world so it's up to the individual to decide what they want to do. Miss Betsy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spambo Posted March 30, 2004 Share Posted March 30, 2004 [snip] I finally gave up and unsubscribed from Target, but I did send a letter to corporate headquarters. There weren't enough disgruntled Target customers for my spamcop reports to put them on the bl. [snip] That doesn't really matter. If you sent the reports from SC the mainsleeze spammer are still informed of your disgruntlement. Mainsleeze spammy still gets the lart they deserve, and unless you do your own munging there should be plenty of info in the SC report to allow them to unsubscribe you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Betsy Posted March 30, 2004 Share Posted March 30, 2004 Well, they didn't unsubscribe me for a spamcop report and they didn't unsubscribe me for manual reports to their ISP and they didn't unsubscribe me for emails to as many addresses as I could find. And they never answer my emails nor my snail mail. Don't buy from TARGET. Miss Betsy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tooangry Posted March 30, 2004 Share Posted March 30, 2004 The one thing I won't do is unsubscribe. Can I ask why not? If you were dealing with peddlers of penis extensions I can understand of course, but Trend is a respectable outfit. You have got on a mailing list by mistake. Unsubscribe and they will take (eventually) you off it. I realise that you're pissed off because you didn't want ot be on the list in the first place, but save your energy for the really bad guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spambo Posted March 30, 2004 Share Posted March 30, 2004 The one thing I won't do is unsubscribe. Can I ask why not? If you were dealing with peddlers of penis extensions I can understand of course, but Trend is a respectable outfit. You have got on a mailing list by mistake. Unsubscribe and they will take (eventually) you off it. I realise that you're pissed off because you didn't want ot be on the list in the first place, but save your energy for the really bad guys. There are some 30 million businesses in the US alone. If you set a precedent by unsubscribing from one of them then it is somewhat unethical to ever get fed up and begin reporting others as spammers instead of unsubscribing from them. Would you really like to tell (potentially) 30 million businesses to remove you from their list- one at a time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Betsy Posted March 30, 2004 Share Posted March 30, 2004 The one thing I won't do is unsubscribe. Can I ask why not? If you were dealing with peddlers of penis extensions I can understand of course, but Trend is a respectable outfit. You have got on a mailing list by mistake. Unsubscribe and they will take (eventually) you off it. If I got on their list by mistake, then, if they are a respectable outfit, they would want to know how. Another reason is that I understand that there are some very good forgeries around. You open the email and a link takes you to a page that looks just like some respectable business (usually these are banks or paypal or credit cards). However, what better way to infect users than sending fake "virus alerts" from reputable companies. And how do you know that the unsubscribe will work? Things get broken. I expect a reputable company to not send me unsolicited email in the first place. If they do, then maybe something is broken so why should I expect the unsubscribe to work. And like Target - which was not a mistake, but putting me on a mailing list without asking me - you don't have to be selling enlargement schemes, to send unsolicited email. Sending unsolicited email makes you a spammer. The criterion is conSent not conTent. As Spambo said, unsolicited email, even from reputable companies, would be a major problem. Fortunately most reputable companies have realized this and have confirmation messages and ask you as you are entering your email address whether or not you want email. They don't share their lists because they know that most people (especially the ones who are good customers) delete any unexpected email sight unseen. Therefore, I never unsubscribe from anything that I have not, to the best of my knowledge and belief, subscribed to. Until, if it is a company that I recognize like Target or Trend Micro, I get tired of trying to get their attention in other ways. Of course, if other people tried to get their attention, then possibly they would wise up and become internet responsible and either I would not get unsolicited email from them or they would respond promptly to complaints. IMHO, I am doing them a favor by reporting spam to them directly rather than through spamcop and I expect to be treated that way. Miss Betsy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyNameHere Posted April 17, 2004 Share Posted April 17, 2004 Not really to reopen the thread, but just to share my experience... I ordered a few things from a skateboarding mail-order company -- they also have a website and I think I ordered something from there at one point. I started getting not only catalogs in the mail but regular emails that began to multiply into different topics, but all from their address. After calling them on the phone at least twice and sending several emails to their customer service and a snail-mail to their HQ, I waited a couple of months and then began to report their missives as spam. But I did it manually, just using the parser to get the ISP. I composed my own message explaining the situation (that I had made multiple attempts to get off their list to no avail) and sent it to the ISP and FCC. I finally stopped getting the spam. Generally, I will try the unsubscribe link first if I know the vendor. Otherwise, I just report and forget about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlyn Posted April 17, 2004 Share Posted April 17, 2004 I will not unsubscribe. If I unsubscribe that means I asked for it to begin with. If I did not ask for something I will not ask to stop getting something I did not ask for to begin with. Never unsubscribe!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twhiting9275 Posted April 17, 2004 Share Posted April 17, 2004 I find it rather amusing that the US govt has basically legalized what has been going on over the past few years, claiming that you merely have to provide an unsubscribe link (as well as a few other minor details) to not call it "spam". Never, ever ever EVER click on that unsubscribe link. God only knows where it'll take you and how many numbers of lists your email address will automatically get you "subscribed" to. Of course, anyone with any practical internet knowledge knows this one. As far as the individual case mentioned, the first step is always to contact the corporation, say "hey, I don't want your spam". If that doesn't work, then forward the mails to sc. Usually, I hit them with the following line as well (which usually stops 'em dead in their tracks): According to the laws of the state of IA, where I reside, your unsolicited email (spam) is subject to a $500 PER EMAIL court fine. This is your only warning to immediately remove me from this mailing list and never mail me again, except at my specific request. Any further emails will result in immediate legal prosecution. Check the laws in your state/country, it may very well be that the same is allowed there as well. If THAT doesn't work, I go after their provider, mailing THEM the same thing. I had numerous companies mailing me company "newsletters", games and the like, simply because they got my address from somewhere. Once they found out I was serious, they stopped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wazoo Posted April 17, 2004 Share Posted April 17, 2004 According to the laws of the state of IA, where I reside, your unsolicited email (spam) is subject to a $500 PER EMAIL court fine. This is your only warning to immediately remove me from this mailing list and never mail me again, except at my specific request. Any further emails will result in immediate legal prosecution. you might want to check your 'cite' at http://www.legis.state.ia.us/IACODE/2001SU...ENT/714E/1.html ... ignoring that you probably don't have name/address of person to serve your paperwork on, but things aren't quite so clear cut in the way I read it ... and even on a positive note, not sure where you might find a $500 lawyer to even take the case, so I'd think you'd at least want to add your paraphrase of the line "In addition to the monetary damages, the recipient is also entitled to costs and reasonable attorney fees. " to at least suggest that you might find an attorney willing to lift a finger ...???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dra007 Posted April 17, 2004 Share Posted April 17, 2004 With most companies, threat with legal action got their attention and worked for me on more than one occasion. It's the real spammers that use viruses and send 100's repeats of the same garbage that are impossible to stop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyNameHere Posted April 17, 2004 Share Posted April 17, 2004 If I unsubscribe that means I asked for it to begin with. If I did not ask for something I will not ask to stop getting something I did not ask for to begin with. I respect your principled position. Being pragmatic instead of principled, I have had a good record of success when "unsubscribing" from reputable organizations. I guess I don't think it's so terrible for a company I've done business with to send me unsolicited e-mail, and so I give them a chance to mend their ways. Just my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Betsy Posted April 17, 2004 Share Posted April 17, 2004 I guess I don't think it's so terrible for a company I've done business with to send me unsolicited e-mail, and so I give them a chance to mend their ways. IMHO, they should be able to unsubscribe you if you tell them, rather than use the unsubscribe link - and then they know they you think what they are doing is rude and unacceptable. The problem with giving them a break is that you don't know if they are willing to send you unsolicited emails, if they might not sell your address. You had better make it clear that you are an unhappy customer to get unsolicited email. All responsible merchants are very clear about their policies. OTOH, when you unsubscribe and still receive emails, that may mean something broken. A polite customer calls it to their attention politely, "I think there is something wrong here..." I really expect apologies and a promise to fix it right away. IMHO, it is more effective than sending an abuse report until after you get no responses or no action. Then, it is time to escalate. I finally found an address that responded on Trend Micro, BTW. I haven't had time to find out if they fixed it or not. Miss Betsy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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