I sell gems on my site, BUT it seems...

[StevenUnderwood]

You are thinking of the Decalration of Independence, not the Constitution.

[Spambo]

Now there is a really helpful comment 

Are you in the USA, or some Communist country?

There are several Sections that would apply!

It sounds like you are USAless 

Where I live has no bearing on the US Constitution. All I asked is for a citation showing where the US Constitution grants a right the OP claimed. (It does not.)

Businesses are heavily regulated by laws and yet I've never heard of a court ruling someone's 'right to conduct business' has ever been violated.

Oh, and that "communist" troll was exactly what I expected from the likes of you. You have no ground to stand on so you resort to calling names. Real mature.

[Matzo]

Hi Matzo ...

Please visit this Forum often.

You make better sense than the regular "munchkins" 

In the best USA / Free Enterprise / Capitalist / Consumer

sense, vote with your dollars and stop using 50megs unless

they dump about.com (unless they smarten-up very soon).

Thank you for the nice comment yourbuddy.

I contacted 50megs and informed them of our intentions to swamp their server with complaints from all the people affected. I also cc:'d it to about.com and freeservers.com. The information I found on informing the ISP about their end of it and accepting the responsibility seems to have been quite effective. The issue was dealt with and the forwards are now getting through .... well.... for now anyway.

This forum itself has been quite helpful.

~Matzo

[Matzo]

Adove comes in and describes doing a web-based business, and complains about some interference with conducting that business. Adove is asked for some data to indicate SpamCop involvement.

As would anyone seeking assistance in a forum designed to help users that don’t know what to do.

Adove responds with a list of AOL rejections to a pretty obvious alphabetized list of "alleged" AOL users, which surely smells like the foulest of spam.

The fact that Adove did not understand the question would indicate she was also unable to respond in the manner someone with more knowledge would appreciate. Even you were a newbie at one point in time and did not understand the questions, nor have the answers readily available. Possibly obvious to someone with the knowledge of reading headers, but apparently not as obvious to Adove. That doesn’t give anyone the “right” to question her motives.

DerekT then asks again for something that suggests that SpamCop is involved. This request is never responded to.

The question was responded to. Simply because of the fact it was not the originator of the post has little relevance.

Going back through this thus far, the only "evidence" Adove has offered is "I've heard SpamCop has 50megs on a black-list" ... which isn't as much "evidence" as a question ... (and to point out, SpamCop doesn't block Domains, only IP addresses)

Evidence was provided, again, perhaps not by Adove, but it was presented. And BTW – domains use the IP’s for email forwarding features, the reason for the problem in the first place. No need to get into nit-picking.

so she went with what she saw and tried to interpret that.

I realize she had to wade through much information that Adove did not understand. Which is quite likely why she chose a less than pertinent message to post. That did not require knowledge of where the computer was located that created the post (other than to attempt to help determine what the problem could be), where Adove had living quarters, nor an insinuation as to Adove’s intentions of her selling business or age. Campus computers are accessible to anyone in the general public, not just students. Besides the fact Miss Betsy had the decency to apologize to Adove for the mistake. You however, have no apparent reason for jumping into this thread other than to complain.

So that you had some infornation and recognized the IP that was causing the issue and pointed that out was certainly helpful, but the fact that Adove has yet to directly respond her(?) self as to where SpamCop got involved is also part of the issue. It certainly would have helped Miss Betsy to come up with a different response. 

Anyone coming into this forum for help deserves to be helped, not questioned as to where they are located. They deserve some measure of respect until they have proven without a doubt they are there only to cause problems (such as your post appears to be). And at the risk of repeating myself, the information was provided, even though you feel it was not by the appropriate poster.

Your comments certainly do make you appear to be in the same ballpark as the spammers themselves, only using different rules. Your rule being: you assume to have the “right” to insult people on a public forum simply because they do not share the same knowledge as you do. Such activities belong in a flame forum or social forum, neither of which this string was placed in.

[Wazoo]

Interesting perspective, I must say.

[Miss Betsy]

Anyone coming into this forum for help deserves to be helped, not questioned as to where they are located. They deserve some measure of respect until they have proven without a doubt they are there only to cause problems (such as your post appears to be). And at the risk of repeating myself, the information was provided, even though you feel it was not by the appropriate poster.

I saw your post, but not until after I had posted.

However, you must realize that we get similar questions from people all the time who don't realize that the mailing list they are using is not really opt in - especially people who don't understand the first thing about servers and IP addresses, etc. If she is an online merchant, she might very well have a mailing list.

And it is necessary to get information in order to help someone. As it turns out, I don't think that adove actually had experienced a problem which is why she couldn't post information.

I am glad that you were able to get some action with your complaint (and that you directed your complaint against the people who were responsible, not spamcop). And that you are in a better mood when you come back to this forum. You must realize that the people in this forum are just users - and they often reply in kind to the poster's attitude. I am in the 'more than over 50' crowd. Yet, I was able to recognize that remarks like Derek's were not 'rude' when I was a newbie, but then I wasn't already riled up about something else.

Miss Betsy

[Matzo]

However, you must realize that we get similar questions from people all the time who don't realize that the mailing list they are using is not really opt in - especially people who don't understand the first thing about servers and IP addresses, etc.  If she is an online merchant, she might very well have a mailing list.

And it is necessary to get information in order to help someone.  As it turns out, I don't think that adove actually had experienced a problem which is why she couldn't post information.

I am glad that you were able to get some action with your complaint (and that you directed your complaint against the people who were responsible, not spamcop).  And that you are in a better mood when you come back to this forum.  You must realize that the people in this forum are just users - and they often reply in kind to the poster's attitude.  I am in the 'more than over 50' crowd. Yet, I was able to recognize that remarks like Derek's were not 'rude' when I was a newbie, but then I wasn't already riled up about something else.

Miss Betsy

Miss Betsy,

I understand your point of view completely, and understand how frustrating repetative questions can get (I teach computer classes at a college - there are days I wonder how I'm going to get through another Intro class without coming unglued!!). But at the same time I realize that many people have the same questions and don't know how to find out if someone else has already asked.

I did have the advantage of knowing more about the situation from a different forum. But Adove was having a problem due to her domain's forwarding feature being in the group of 50megs users domain forwarding feature being blocked by SpamCop from the same IP. She just didn't exactly understand it and couldn't explain it so it was understood by those with more savvy of IP's and ISP's. And she simply chose to post a random header received as she doesn't have the ability to decipher headers.

And I am always in a good frame of mind. I just don't have a problem attempting to point out what doesn't seem to be quite kosher. It was wazoo's comments and constant badgering of Adove for an answer she could not possibly come up with that irritated me.

I have great respect for you as you show professionalism toward your helping others. Please don't feel I was directing any anger toward you. I tend to put my observations bluntly at times. Comes with the "over 50's bunch" no doubt. No time or desire to beat around the bush.

~Matzo

[Wazoo]

wazoo's comments and constant badgering

2 questuions, both dealing wih explaining why Miss Betsy answered the way she did in her first answer, one dealing with why adove had not answered two others asking for the same data ....

Followed by one direct answer, then another post extracting data from one adove post that was also referenced in one of your posts, to answer yet another poster's query.

And all this translates into "constant badgering?

Comes with the "over 50's bunch" no doubt. No time or desire to beat around the bush.

I'm in that over-50 thing to, and I still haven't actually seen the first sign of exactly how adove and SpamCop got together, short of "hearing something" ....

[Matzo]

2 questuions, both dealing wih explaining why Miss Betsy answered the way she did in her first answer, one dealing with why adove had not answered two others asking for the same data ....

Continuously asking the same question of someone who has already stated they are confused, and since it was in every one of your posts, yes. I consider it constant. Very little difference in the connotation of continuous and constant. Go see how many times Adove reiterated she did not know how to answer the questions.

I'm in that over-50 thing to, and I still haven't actually seen the first sign of exactly how adove and SpamCop got together, short of "hearing something" 

The need to find out why Adove came to SpamCop was not the issue. The issue was she was trying to find out how to resolve her problem with little knowledge of how to explain it. But for your edification, it was a post I made in the 50megs forum informing her that SpamCop was banning many site’s emails due to spammers, at her request for assistance in finding out what was going on with her emails. It was I who was not aware that SpamCop had a forum and Adove that informed me of it. And it’s a good thing or you would have chased her out of here more frustrated and confused than she came in to begin with.

~Matzo

[turetzsr]

Hi, Cynthia!

<snip>

I don't understand. What is Ol Miss, and what do I need to send them?

Are they a spam stopping service, or something like SpamCop?

<snip>

...Here is what I believe Miss Betsy was referring to:

From your post:

The original message was received at Sat, 3 Apr 2004 03:35:06 -0600 (CST)

from hst000044482um.phi-kappa-tau.olemiss .edu [130.74.223.132]

<snip>

..."Ol Miss" is a common nickname for the University of Mississippi.

[turetzsr]

adove

If you do not use mailing lists to reach your customers, then there would not be a problem with your mailing list.

Apparently it does have to do with 50megs and you would be well advised to join with matzos to harass them about making above.net stop whatever spam is coming from those servers.  (if I understand what is happening)

The alternative while you are waiting for something to happen is to use a web email for invoicing.  The most well known are hotmail and yahoo. 

Good Luck!  It is too bad that the spammers have spoiled it for all of us.  If I ever want a piece of jewelry, I look you up.

Miss Betsy

...Might there be a problem if Cynthia is not confirming the requests? That is, I might go to her web site and fill in your e-mail address (if I knew it) without your permission. You would then receive from Cynthia what to you would be spam because you did not request it.

[turetzsr]

Hi, Cynthia,

Dear Wazoo, I have already made it very clear that I know nothing about

this kind of thing. All I want is for business to run smoothly. Is there something

you do not understand in regards to operating a business and not wanting to

deal with interference... wherever it is coming from. I don't know what the

problem is. I just want it stopped. I do not want my business effected by

something someone else is doing which I have no control over. Is this hard

to understand? The reason you are not getting clearer information from me regarding the source of the problem is because I DO NOT UNDERSTAND where

to get the information you are requesting. I was told that 50megs was blocked

by spamcop, so here I am. Are we all clear?

...Please chill (that's teenager-speak for "cool it")! I'm sure Wazoo was entirely clear on what you have been asking. IIUC, his post was in defense of Miss Betsy and directed to

Miss Betsy.

<snip>

A little discretion is requested on your part. Asking such a flippant question as "are you selling gems from your dorm room" was totally uncalled for, and rather rude.

...In Wazoo's view (and mine, as well), Miss Betsy was not being (intentionally) rude (although perhaps making [not unreasonable but incorrect] assumptions). And Wazoo did not seem to me to be being nasty to Matzo, either -- just trying to explain why Miss Betsy wrote what she did. We're all grateful for Matzo's intervention!

...The bottom line is, we're all here trying to help, although only a very select few of us have access to the inner workings of SpamCop, so we are doing the best we can. Occassionally, someone's nose gets bent out of joint but, happily, that's relatively rare, at least compared to what I saw in this forum's predecessor (the newsgroup forum).

[turetzsr]

Never mind. This is pointless. I thought you might be able to look on your system

and see if 50megs is being blocked.

...Nope, us mere users have no crystal ball to look into the SpamCop system any more than we can look into yours. All we can do is offer suggestions based on our (or others' posted) previous experience.

Didn't know I was asking the impossible.

...You weren't necessarily asking the impossible, you just weren't providing enough (or the right kind of) information to allow us to help you.

[turetzsr]

This falls under "persuit of happiness"... or at least that's what I learned

way back when. Sounds like you want to chatter.

...We definitely like to do that here!

I have to work now.

...Well, to be fair, it was you who brought that up. If you didn't want to discuss that, you probably shouldn't have mentioned it in your original post.

[turetzsr]

Hi, Spambo!

Now there is a really helpful comment 

Are you in the USA, or some Communist country?

There are several Sections that would apply!

It sounds like you are USAless 

Where I live has no bearing on the US Constitution. All I asked is for a citation showing where the US Constitution grants a right the OP claimed. (It does not.)

Businesses are heavily regulated by laws and yet I've never heard of a court ruling someone's 'right to conduct business' has ever been violated.

Oh, and that "communist" troll was exactly what I expected from the likes of you. You have no ground to stand on so you resort to calling names. Real mature.

...You seem to have missed yourbuddy's smileys.

[turetzsr]

Adove comes in and describes doing a web-based business, and complains about some interference with conducting that business. Adove is asked for some data to indicate SpamCop involvement.

As would anyone seeking assistance in a forum designed to help users that don’t know what to do.

...And I don't see anything here that questioned her doing so.

Adove responds with a list of AOL rejections to a pretty obvious alphabetized list of "alleged" AOL users, which surely smells like the foulest of spam.

The fact that Adove did not understand the question would indicate she was also unable to respond in the manner someone with more knowledge would appreciate. Even you were a newbie at one point in time and did not understand the questions, nor have the answers readily available. Possibly obvious to someone with the knowledge of reading headers, but apparently not as obvious to Adove. That doesn’t give anyone the “right” to question her motives.

...And I don't see anything here that questioned her motives.

DerekT then asks again for something that suggests that SpamCop is involved. This request is never responded to.

The question was responded to. Simply because of the fact it was not the originator of the post has little relevance.

...This isn't clear to me. If you are referring to your first post (for which we're all grateful! <g>), then what I see is pretty much a jump to problem resolution (a good thing!), not the answering of DerekT's question.

Going back through this thus far, the only "evidence" Adove has offered is "I've heard SpamCop has 50megs on a black-list" ... which isn't as much "evidence" as a question ... (and to point out, SpamCop doesn't block Domains, only IP addresses)

Evidence was provided, again, perhaps not by Adove, but it was presented. And BTW – domains use the IP’s for email forwarding features, the reason for the problem in the first place. No need to get into nit-picking.

...This isn't nit-picking, it's an basic feature of SpamCop's block list. The distinction is that domains can be easily spoofed but it is much harder to spoof IP addresses.

so she went with what she saw and tried to interpret that.

I realize she had to wade through much information that Adove did not understand. Which is quite likely why she chose a less than pertinent message to post. That did not require knowledge of where the computer was located that created the post (other than to attempt to help determine what the problem could be), where Adove had living quarters, nor an insinuation as to Adove’s intentions of her selling business or age. Campus computers are accessible to anyone in the general public, not just students. Besides the fact Miss Betsy had the decency to apologize to Adove for the mistake. You however, have no apparent reason for jumping into this thread other than to complain.

...Are you reading the same threads I am? I see no complaints from Wazoo about Cynthia's posts, other than that she did not answer all the questions posed, which is both true but not necessarily a "get out of here we don't want to hear from you" criticism.

So that you had some infornation and recognized the IP that was causing the issue and pointed that out was certainly helpful, but the fact that Adove has yet to directly respond her(?) self as to where SpamCop got involved is also part of the issue. It certainly would have helped Miss Betsy to come up with a different response. 

Anyone coming into this forum for help deserves to be helped, not questioned as to where they are located. They deserve some measure of respect until they have proven without a doubt they are there only to cause problems (such as your post appears to be). And at the risk of repeating myself, the information was provided, even though you feel it was not by the appropriate poster.

...Lighten up, PLEASE! What Miss Betsy wrote was hardly the level of disrespect you seem to believe.

Your comments certainly do make you appear to be in the same ballpark as the spammers themselves, only using different rules. Your rule being: you assume to have the “right” to insult people on a public forum simply because they do not share the same knowledge as you do. Such activities belong in a flame forum or social forum, neither of which this string was placed in.

...Oh, please! Wazoo did nothing of the sort that I can see. You have migrated from the hero of the day to the behavior of a boor. My opinion only, FWIW (and it isn't worth much, I'm sure <g>).

[yourbuddy]

Oh boy, it's the SpamCop gang, beating up on Matzo.

Matzo'll be beat to a pulp, perhaps even a Matzo ball.

[Miss Betsy]

Steve aka turetzsr is answering posts that were settled long ago. Neither adove nor matzos will be back to read this thread, probably, because their problem was solved.

And for yourbuddy's sake, matzos understood how to solve his problem. He didn't rant and rave at the messenger, but took it up with the sending end.

Miss Betsy

[turetzsr]

2 questuions, both dealing wih explaining why Miss Betsy answered the way she did in her first answer, one dealing with why adove had not answered two others asking for the same data ....

Continuously asking the same question of someone who has already stated they are confused, and since it was in every one of your posts, yes. I consider it constant. Very little difference in the connotation of continuous and constant. Go see how many times Adove reiterated she did not know how to answer the questions.

...Here is what I see posted by Wazoo up to the post to which I'm replying:

1. Apr 4 2004, 03:30 PM EDT: no questions directed to Cynthia, simply summarizing the thread to-date
   
2. Apr 4 2004, 04:23 PM EDT: answering Cynthia's direct questions to Wazoo
   
3. Apr 4 2004, 04:39 PM EDT: posted links relating to SpamCop's (and others) blocking of (and other issues with) IP address 208.185.127.156
   
4. Apr 4 2004, 06:56 PM EDT: answer of WB8TYW about connection between 208.185.127.156 and adove2000.com (with mention that Cynthia had not yet indicated the source of her information that SpamCop might be involved)
   
5. Apr 4 2004, 10:13 PM EDT: nothing directed at or relating to Cynthia
   
6. Apr 5 2004, 02:19 AM EDT: response to your accusation of "constant badgering"
   

...Hmm - must say that I don't see "constant badgering" here, either. Several of Wazoo's posts contained nothing related to Cynthia's posts. Maybe it's just me (and Wazoo himself)?

I'm in that over-50 thing to, and I still haven't actually seen the first sign of exactly how adove and SpamCop got together, short of "hearing something" 

The need to find out why Adove came to SpamCop was not the issue. The issue was she was trying to find out how to resolve her problem with little knowledge of how to explain it. But for your edification, it was a post I made in the 50megs forum informing her that SpamCop was banning many site’s emails due to spammers, at her request for assistance in finding out what was going on with her emails. It was I who was not aware that SpamCop had a forum and Adove that informed me of it. And it’s a good thing or you would have chased her out of here more frustrated and confused than she came in to begin with.

~Matzo

...But the source that prompts people to come to SpamCop almost always contains significant information that would help us help her! As it turns out in this case, it probably would not but it almost always does. Wazoo's question (and its occasional repetition) was very appropriate and the furthest thing from badgering someone for what is most often the critical bit of information allowing us to help!

[turetzsr]

Oh boy, it's the SpamCop gang, beating up on Matzo.

Matzo'll be beat to a pulp, perhaps even a Matzo ball.

...Matzo made several unsubstantiated remarks that appeared (because this thread became so long) to be justified but which IMHO were not. I'm simply trying to clarify what happened in a way that I hope will make everyone look good, as I believe everyone involved (including you, for your contribution!) deserve!

[yourbuddy]

No, Betsy, but you'll be back!!

Are you trying to get to 300 posts??

Do you become a "bigger member" then??

Ok, ok, too catty, perhaps.

Some people just get me into that frame

of mind - it's just they're so purrrfect

[dra007]

Oh boy, looks like the help forum is turning into a circus ring, this could be fun!

[Matzo]

Oh boy, it's the SpamCop gang, beating up on Matzo.

Matzo'll be beat to a pulp, perhaps even a Matzo ball.

LOL. Well. Since Matzo's are crackers anyway.....

Just opinions being offered. No crumbs off of this Matzo.

[Matzo]

Steve aka turetzsr is answering posts that were settled long ago.  Neither adove nor matzos will be back to read this thread, probably, because their problem was solved.

And for yourbuddy's sake, matzos understood how to solve his problem.  He didn't rant and rave at the messenger, but took it up with the sending end.

Miss Betsy

Well. The issue was resolved for a few hours. SpamCop is again blocking the IP.

Assuming I wouldn't follow through is just an opinion from someone who doesn't know me too well. Such as a lot of the comments following the temporary resolution. But everyone is entitled to their opinions. Doesn't bother me a bit.

P.S. matzos is my website. I am Matzo and a female.

~Matzo

[dra007]

if I leaned anything from this post is that everyone wants to be a Prima Donna, not that this was a new insight...