dra007 Posted April 7, 2004 Share Posted April 7, 2004 SpamHaus is entitled to its, and I believe I am entitled to mine ...and I to mine, I do not want any unsolicited e-mail, period...As long as I get it I will faithfully report it to SpamCop...and I will make anyone on my "friends" list aware of SpamCop courageus actions! Fight spam Scum! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yourbuddy Posted April 7, 2004 Share Posted April 7, 2004 SpamHaus is entitled to its, and I believe I am entitled to mine ...and I to mine, I do not want any unsolicited e-mail, period...As long as I get it I will faithfully report it to SpamCop...and I will make anyone on my "friends" list aware of SpamCop courageus actions! Fight spam Scum! You have a "friends list"?? The "friends" is a surprise - how did you get them?? The "list" is a surprise - they all "opt-in" without you contacting them?? How do you send email to your "friends list" - phone them first?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yourbuddy Posted April 7, 2004 Share Posted April 7, 2004 <snip> This is simply advertising using email, just like advertising that uses Radio, TV, print media, etc. It doesn't need the recipients prior approval (how would you get that, without contacting?). <snip> ...Sorry, I don't agree. I turn on the radio or TV or buy print media, thus receiving the advertising. My choice, not the advertisers'. I turn on the radio or TV to listen to music or watch a show. I don't want the "advertising" - so is the advertising spam?? I get print media advertising delivered free by the postal service. I don't want it, so is the postal service guilty of delivering spam?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turetzsr Posted April 7, 2004 Share Posted April 7, 2004 <snip> This is simply advertising using email, just like advertising that uses Radio, TV, print media, etc. It doesn't need the recipients prior approval (how would you get that, without contacting?). <snip> ...Sorry, I don't agree. I turn on the radio or TV or buy print media, thus receiving the advertising. My choice, not the advertisers'. I turn on the radio or TV to listen to music or watch a show. I don't want the "advertising" - so is the advertising spam?? ...No, because you "turned on the radio or TV, knowing full well that it is an advertising medium. You may have turned on your e-mail service ONLY to communicate with people you need to communicate with, not for e-commerce. I get print media advertising delivered free by the postal service. I don't want it, so is the postal service guilty of delivering spam?? ...You don't pay directly for print media advertising delivered by the postal service but (assuming you're like almost everyone else) you do pay for your e-mail and/ or internet connection service. Yes, the print media advertisers are sending spam (it's both UBE and UCE, so it would seem to meet even SpamHaus's definition). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Betsy Posted April 7, 2004 Share Posted April 7, 2004 I did go and read the spamhaus definition again. The way that I interpret that is that unsolicited email to the appropriate email address (your long lost cousin, first contact inquiries, sales, etc.) is normal and acceptable. Bulk email is also acceptable as long as it is confirmed subscription. It is unsolicited bulk email that is not acceptable. To write an email to a business address /inquiring/ about where to send job applications is unsolicited, but expected in a business relationship or to ask who to contact to introduce a product. IMHO, there is implicit permission in certain email addresses like sales or admin for business unsolicited contact. However, to send a bulk email to companies who 'might' be interested is still not allowed under the spamhaus definition. The spamhaus definition is also their definition that they base their blocklist on. IMHO, only unsolicited bulk email should be on any public blocklist (and they also should exclude any prior business misunderstandings - don't misunderstand me - I think that people should complain loudly and long to the companies who won't unsubscribe immediately (or who hide their sign up lists), but I don't think they should report it through spamcop - or however other lists get their IP addresses to block). Nonetheless it is still rude (mainly because of the spam) to email anyone who has not agreed to receive your email. If unsolicited individual email ever becomes a problem, then be sure the spamhause definition will change. The basic concept is that if it is unsolicited and unwanted, it is spam. Businesses want unsolicited email that is pertinent to their business and are prepared to delete what they don't want. They don't want email that has to be unsubscribed from unless they agree to receive it. And another thing, an individual email does NOT need an unsubscribe. Miss Betsy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turetzsr Posted April 7, 2004 Share Posted April 7, 2004 I don't think your"buddy" understands what spam is <snip> ...Of course, (s)he does -- (s)he just has a relatively liberal view of its definition, compared to many of us who use SpamCop.net. And (s)he is completely entitled to that opinion, I might add (you know that saying [to paraphrase]: I may disagree with what yourbuddy says but I shall defend to the death her/his right to say it). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Betsy Posted April 7, 2004 Share Posted April 7, 2004 I have no idea where the post is that I want to respond to, but yourbuddy was being sarcastic about sending 'embossed invitations' and I had a thought. Confirmation emails are the accepted way to sign up to a mailing list. If they go to the wrong person, they are not considered 'unsolicited' For Tony's friend and also the people organizing a reunion, my idea is that it would polite, not intrusive, for the situations described, for the sender to send a 'confirmation' like email stating the reason that he would like to email you. In Tony's case, it would be along the lines of "I have this great little project that I would like to tell you about. If you are interested in hearing about it, email me back" In the reunion guys' case, "We are organizing the 1990 reunion of whatever HS. We would like to include you in our mailings. Please email us back if you are interested." In both cases, of course, if there was no return email, their email address would not go on the list. That's only for private individuals. Miss Manners is not above adapting to new situations. It is like the call before the visit. Business email can never be bulk unless it is agreed to without being spam. OTOH, we have a friend from an organization who occasionally emails us (along with others on the organization email list) also about special events at his store. Even though it is commercial and it is bulk, IMHO, it is not spam since we have a relationship with him. It might be more polite for him to always say if you don't want to hear about my business, just email me. Personally, I would prefer that email be blocked on the fact that it is bulk and has not announced itself in the headers as bulk. Everybody would be happy then. Individual emails would never be blocked whether unsolicited or not and could be handled individually. IP addresses that did not enforce the bulk email header would be blocked - not on the basis of spam, but on the basis of incompetence in designing email. Bulk email that one wanted would be whitelisted as part of the confirmation process and all other bulk email would be rejected at the server. ISP's could charge more for those who accept any bulk email. Those who buy from spam could pay to get it. The spammers would get their sales (or go broke because nobody will accept their spew). There is no new technology (even the bulk email headers is already an RFC). The major problem is that people would have to get used to it and there would be a lot of blocking of non-bulk emailers until they convinced their ISP's to enforce that bulk email be tagged in the headers so that they wouldn't be blocked. That would cost more for the ISP to oversee and who then would charge more for bulk email accounts which would further increase the cost of sending unsolicited bulk email and make it less attractive to businesses. Miss Betsy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dra007 Posted April 7, 2004 Share Posted April 7, 2004 There is absolutely no need for me to pay for emails that I do not want. It is not fanatical; it is common sense. yourbuddy is living in yesterday's world. ...I couldn't agree more... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yourbuddy Posted April 7, 2004 Share Posted April 7, 2004 Ok, Miss Betsy ... tell me what you think about this ... just and idea, based on your previous post. Also, if you don't agree, just say so (I know you will) or offer suggestions (if you want to). Anyone else, please just jump right in. If a legitimate "commercial organization" sent (one only) "first contact" email that said something like: "We have some great ideas about (some legitimate business topic) that we would like to tell you about. If you are interested, you can subscribe (by sending email to subscibe[at]its-us.com). If not interested, there is nothing to do, and we will not be contacting you again about this." This would be commercial (yes), it would be limited to possibly interested commercial organizations (so it's not too "bulky"). This is not about personal email, but using email for commercial use. Is the above "good manners"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loafman Posted April 7, 2004 Share Posted April 7, 2004 If a legitimate "commercial organization" sent (one only) "first contact" email that said something like: "We have some great ideas about (some legitimate business topic) that we would like to tell you about. If you are interested, you can subscribe (by sending email to subscibe[at]its-us.com). If not interested, there is nothing to do, and we will not be contacting you again about this." This would be commercial (yes), it would be limited to possibly interested commercial organizations (so it's not too "bulky"). This is not about personal email, but using email for commercial use. Is the above "good manners"? We've been through this argument before. If every commercial entity sent out such an email, there would be a global meltdown of the email system. I don't have the numbers, but it would amount to millions of businesses times millions of email users. Think about all the small businesses out there. Enormous numbers just in the US alone. The idea does not scale. ...Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Betsy Posted April 7, 2004 Share Posted April 7, 2004 If a legitimate "commercial organization" sent (one only) "first contact" email that said something like: "We have some great ideas about (some legitimate business topic) that we would like to tell you about. If you are interested, you can subscribe (by sending email to subscibe[at]its-us.com). If not interested, there is nothing to do, and we will not be contacting you again about this." If it was an individual email (no cc or bcc) to an appropriate address (not to 'orders' or 'support'), I think that it fits the spamhaus definition. However, if it is bulk, it is spam. Therefore, the email would have to be constructed so it did not sound like bulk. All in all, considering that at least 1/2 of the recipients would simply delete it; 1/4 would report it as spam; and most of the last quarter would now be prejudiced against your company for not being smart enough to avoid looking like a spammer even if they did not either delete or report it, I would think that it would be more beneficial to use another way to introduce a product. There are few door-to-door salesmen nowadays because there are criminals who try to rip you off and criminals that outright rob or kill you. That doesn't mean that legitimate door-to-door salesmen were bad people, but anyone who isn't a criminal nowadays has to overcome that prejudice before he can even start his sales pitch so other ways are used to reach customers (flyers on door knobs, hosted parties, TV commercials sold only on TV). I believe the same is true for unsolicited email. In another discussion, there were people who would report it and people who felt it was legitimate. Again, IMHO, blocklists should be based only on the immediate problem which is UBE. How an individual handles individual problems with unrequested and unwanted email should be done on an individual basis. And the reason, as ken points out, is that there are too many businesses and too many possible clients for the email system to handle that kind of traffic if it were a bulk email. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevenUnderwood Posted April 7, 2004 Share Posted April 7, 2004 I agree with Miss Betsy that as long as the addresses were appropriate, such a message would be acceptable. I had a case similar this morning at work. A recruiting agent sent a message to our info address (which is posted as being for inquiries about our company and products) that I reported. I then saw the same mesage in our jobs mailbox, which did not get reported because it was appropriate there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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