C2H5OH Posted September 17, 2007 Share Posted September 17, 2007 Unusually, I had a reply from an ISP which had been sending me misdirected bounces. His response - sent via SpamCop - said, "Hello! This is delivery status notification, not a spam." Now we all KNOW it was a DSN, but also that they were wrong to send it to ME. I thought I'd try to "educate" the gentleman by pointing him to the excellent "Why autoresponders are bad" section of the FAQ. However, replying-to wants to send notification to Don at SpamCop, not (in this case) Max A. Krasilnikov at the "Colocall" Internet Data Center. See http://www.spamcop.net/sc?id=z1432260617zb...fcdff11b5f1a88z Is there a way I can send this guy a clue, whilst retaining the secure anonymity of my SpamCop alias? TIA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Betsy Posted September 17, 2007 Share Posted September 17, 2007 Is there a way I can send this guy a clue, whilst retaining the secure anonymity of my SpamCop alias? You can use a throwaway account - for instance, setting up a hotmail or yahoo account just for that purpose. Or, and here I am shaky ground, you can change the return path in your email software. That would not change the headers though if he wanted to look at them. Miss Betsy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpamCopAdmin Posted September 17, 2007 Share Posted September 17, 2007 However, replying-to wants to send notification to Don at SpamCop Yikes! That's not "replying." That's filing a false report about mail that isn't spam. Is there a way I can send this guy a clue, whilst retaining the secure anonymity of my SpamCop alias? If your mail client will allow it, you can use the address they used to write to you. If you use 2504079165[at]reports.spamcop.net as the return address on your email, their reply will be forwarded to you by our system just like their original email was. - Don D'Minion - SpamCop Admin - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevenUnderwood Posted September 17, 2007 Share Posted September 17, 2007 Yikes! That's not "replying." That's filing a false report about mail that isn't spam. - Don D'Minion - SpamCop Admin - Don: Thanks for the update. When I looked, the report was cancelled. If people want to present the entire email to us here, that is how we request they do it (through a cancelled report). That way we can see the entire message, intact, since this forum software likes to remove all whitespace from posts. It also allows us to see how the software handled the parse when that is the question. In this case, the entire message was not necessary, but we have such a hard time getting people to present enough information to help that when someone provides too much, we don't complain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpamCopAdmin Posted September 17, 2007 Share Posted September 17, 2007 When I looked, the report was cancelled.Oddly enough, I saw the same thing when I looked. Just so there's no confusion... I'm not going to let an apparent misunderstanding about the difference between replying to an ISP response and filing a false report to go unremarked no matter what you might think of my judgement. What I saw in his post was an attempt to report the email, which was abandoned because the report would be sent to me instead of the person he thought should get it. I didn't see any statement from him about doing you a favor by creating a Tracking URL. - Don D'Minion - SpamCop Admin - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turetzsr Posted September 17, 2007 Share Posted September 17, 2007 <snip> Just so there's no confusion... I'm not going to let an apparent misunderstanding about the difference between replying to an ISP response and filing a false report to go unremarked ... ...Thanks, Don, fair enough! ... no matter what you might think of my judgement. <snip> And just so there's no confusion on your part (assuming I understand him correctly): StevenUnderwood was not questioning your judgment, he was simply offering an explanation as to why a canceled report that, if sent, would have been a false spam report, might not have been (that is, it might not have been sent, it might only have been created in an attempt to provide us with sufficient information to answer a question). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevenUnderwood Posted September 17, 2007 Share Posted September 17, 2007 Steve (User: turetzsr) has interpretted my response correctly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpamCopAdmin Posted September 18, 2007 Share Posted September 18, 2007 Steve (User: turetzsr) has interpretted my response correctly.Aha! OK. I understand now. You were simply "educating" me about Tracking URLs, and steering me toward the "proper" reading of C2H5OH's post. I stand corrected! - Don D'Minion - SpamCop Admin - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turetzsr Posted September 18, 2007 Share Posted September 18, 2007 Aha! OK. I understand now. You were simply "educating" me about Tracking URLs, and steering me toward the "proper" reading of C2H5OH's post. <snip> ...Umm, not if I understand you correctly! <g> I'm sure StevenUnderwood knows that you know what a tracking URL is and would not presume to educate you on what they are. Nor did he suggest your reading of C2H5OH's post was other than reasonable. Rather, he was offering an alternative (and less sinister) interpretation, based on one way we volunteers use Tracking URLs here in the Forum. ...IMHO, even if one interprets C2H5OH's post in the more benign way, it is still appropriate to warn against filing false reports, even accidentally, so I appreciate your having done so, equally with appreciating StevenUnderwood's offering you the interpretation he did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Betsy Posted September 19, 2007 Share Posted September 19, 2007 So, I wonder if the OP found a way to 'educate' the sender of email bounce to the forged return path? Miss Betsy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C2H5OH Posted September 19, 2007 Author Share Posted September 19, 2007 So, I wonder if the OP found a way to 'educate' the sender of email bounce to the forged return path? I hardly dared put my head over the parapet again... Thanks to all those who have helped explain my actions. [horse's mouth mode] I purposely cancelled the report to Don as I realised it would have been 1) inappropriate and 2) wrongly directed. I included the SpamCop link in case it was useful to any of you more enlightened and experienced users. [/horse's mouth mode] Miss Betsy, I haven't yet tried to educate Mr Krasilnikov. I thought I'd wait until he next contacts me in response to a SpamCop complaint, then I'll use the "comments" section to explain to him the error of his ways. Might be some time though - I've had to turn off DSNs again to stem the (Russian) flood. Keep up the good work! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Betsy Posted September 19, 2007 Share Posted September 19, 2007 Not sure if you understand the process yet. I didn't look at the Tracking URL in your first post where you had cancelled the report of an ISP reply. As Don says, reporting ISP replies is a no-no and is sent to him so that he can inform you that it is not allowed. When an ISP replies to a spamcop report, the email goes to the return path, which is the report id at spamcop. It is forwarded to your inbox. In order to answer it, without revealing your email address, you need to either change the return path in your email client to the report id address (and I am not even going to attempt to explain how you do that) or use a throwaway account. If you use a throwaway account, you will have to include the original email from the ISP (not the headers, but the message) so that they know what you are talking about. So be on the lookout for ISP replies. They happen so infrequently that it is easy to overlook them. The only way to use the 'comments' section of a spamcop report to 'educate' is to put an explanation in the 'original' report of misdirected bounce. And that is not very handy to do usually and probably would not be read by an abuse desk anyway. You can't contact the ISP by using a report of their reply. If you have had to turn off something to avoid getting 'bounces', then remember, you catch more flies with honey... if you do decide to answer someone! I am sure it would be an awful temptation to give them a graphic description of what you are going through! Just sending them the link to the explanation is a good idea. (I think you mentioned doing that earlier). Remember the shorter the better - especially for someone who will have to translate. Miss Betsy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C2H5OH Posted September 19, 2007 Author Share Posted September 19, 2007 Not sure if you understand the process yet. The only way to use the 'comments' section of a spamcop report to 'educate' is to put an explanation in the 'original' report of misdirected bounce. And that is not very handy to do usually and probably would not be read by an abuse desk anyway. You can't contact the ISP by using a report of their reply. Hi Miss Betsy. I *think* I understand it, I'm just obviously hopeless at explaining myself! Yes, the ISP response was, as I mentioned in my first posting, unusual. That's why I felt it might be worth following up, as there was obviously someone there who cared a little.. As you have identified, my proposal was to wait until I receive another misdirected bounce from this same chap, then in the "comments" section of my FIRST AND ONLY report, include the suggestion to review your autoresponder advice. (AIUI I may treat misdirected bounces as spam and report them.) I would of course never consider the ISP's response to my complaint was spam, although almost everyone else here seems to think I would :-( I'm interested that you think it's not handy to do, nor likely to be read by an abuse desk. Often the reporting addresses used by SpamCop seem to be personal email addresses of staff, but maybe "Max Krasilnikov" is Russian for "John dev-null Smith". Thanks to everyone for their help and advice on this one. Might I suggest we put it to bed now? Right, now to deal with another few dozen Russian non-delivery reports. Some are still getting through... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A.J.Mechelynck Posted November 3, 2007 Share Posted November 3, 2007 [...] The only way to use the 'comments' section of a spamcop report to 'educate' is to put an explanation in the 'original' report of misdirected bounce. And that is not very handy to do usually and probably would not be read by an abuse desk anyway. You can't contact the ISP by using a report of their reply. [...] Miss Betsy Hello, Miss Betsy! Yeah, that's what I do... when I don't forget: when reporting a "false bounce", I write "Misdirected bounce: see http://www.spamcop.net/fom-serve/cache/329.html " (the shorter the better ) in the "user comments" box (yes, of the original report). Apparently it works (at least, they don't tell me I'm wrong), since the only two or three "human replies to reports" I got this year were to inform me that the spammer's account had been closed. And to avoid missing these "human replies" (they're so few and far between) (also to avoid reporting them as spam, which they aren't) I've made a mail filter just for them: Match all of the following: [ To ] [ contains ] [ [at]reports.spamcop.net ] [*]Perform these actions: [ Move Message To ] [ SC Reports on Local Folders ] [ Set Junk Status To ] [ Not Junk ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Betsy Posted November 4, 2007 Share Posted November 4, 2007 Hi Tony! Glad to see you are still reporting spam! That's a good idea to make a filter for reponses! It's always so exciting to get one, one would hate to miss one. I'm in Gettysburg, PA this weekend - a family wedding and then a visit with grandsons. I am having a terrible time using this hotel computer (both the keyboard seems to stick and isn't at the right height so I am not going to type much more. However, I was just wondering what impact text messaging would have on Esperanto? Miss Betsy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A.J.Mechelynck Posted November 4, 2007 Share Posted November 4, 2007 Hi Tony! Glad to see you are still reporting spam! I am, though I'm awaiting with some trepidation an answer from deputies[at] telling me whether I'll be banned for having done "material changes to spam", namely, added "[no body in email]" do bodiless spams, something which used to be explicitly allowed but has disappeared from the FAQ, and also "shortening" a "To:" line which happened to exceed 50K all by itself. See http://forum.spamcop.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=8895 -- formerly I wouldn't have been banned without a warning first, but I read in the latest FAQ that the penalty for every breach of the rules is now immediate termination of account without warning, at least for free accounts... That's a good idea to make a filter for reponses! It's always so exciting to get one, one would hate to miss one. -------- Lurkers, the rest of this post is off-topic; continue reading at your own risk only: it is not about SpamCop! Or else, stop. -------- I'm in Gettysburg, PA this weekend - a family wedding and then a visit with grandsons. I am having a terrible time using this hotel computer (both the keyboard seems to stick and isn't at the right height so I am not going to type much more. However, I was just wondering what impact text messaging would have on Esperanto? Miss Betsy Have a nice trip. With a good keyboard, such as my present fr-BE for openSUSE Linux, which can use the circumflex dead key on consonants: Ĉĉ ÄœÄ Ä¤Ä¥ Ĵĵ ÅœÅ, Esperanto is a breeze. And for Å (or without a "good" keyboard) I can use the abcTajpu extension to Firefox, or paste from the gvim editor. Or (on a French keyboard) I can use ù which is not "exactly the same" but is similar enough to have been used for 120 years on French typewriters which didn't have the breve sign. IMHO, the effect of the Internet in general on the Esperanto can only be positive, since the Esperantist people are a diaspora, living few and far between but all over the world, and such peoples are kept together, when they are, by communications. (The Basque or the Estonians can walk or drive to each other's houses, but we Esperantists rely on long-distance snail-mail, phone, and now email, blogging and chat.) I've been upgrading my openSUSE Linux OS from version 10.2 to 10.3 over the weekend -- I'd say the hardest part was to find the correct HTTP entry point to get the free downloadable version. These Novell salesmonkeys seem to have taken over the site to make it practically impossible to get the distribution for free; but it is doable, and I've done it now: nothing that obstination couldn't solve. I expect a higher-than-average ADSL traffic this month: we're the 4th, and I've already "consumed" about half my 12G monthly allowance; but I have a "fuel reserve" which carries over from month to month, and there are still 3.4 gig in it. It ought to be enough; and if it isn't, an extra 5G reserve costs only 5€. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Betsy Posted November 5, 2007 Share Posted November 5, 2007 I am starting a new topic in the lounge about Esperanto. (I don't know if it is possible to move one post or not) Miss Betsy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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