SpamCop Victimising Victims

[Friasnet]

SpamCop has sunk to an all time low Victimising Victims. At this point I curently consider SpamCop no better then the spammer them selves. And as SpamCop does not wish to give even a form to converse with them, only user to user, I move we who are victoms of SpamCop lever a class action law suit against them!

SpamCop has desided to treat legitimate Chalenge Responces as spam. The Chanlenge Responce is a good way to check if there is a human beeing behind the email. Yes it is abused, and yes I understand their stand, the end result is Victimising the Victim, and no degree of that can ever be tolerated or considered a solution. That is like locking someone up to keep them from being robbed, no diferent.

My cercomstance. I have a 10 year old email address, well established, well published. To change it would seriously harm me financialy. Back when I only recieved spam in the hundreds of pieces per day, I used G-Lock spam Combat, with about a thousand hand configured filters, and it took me about a half to an hour to clean out all the spam. When the number of pieces of spam exceded a thousand in a day, that method was far past being efective. the Chalenge Responce was a God Sent, untill SpamCop decided to Victimise the Victim and deleting the Chalenge Responce so legitimate people never get a chance to be cary out legitimate email coraspondance.

So, now SpamCop is holding a gun to my head and telling me that I have to accept this overwelming amount of spam and just deal with it, or be labled a spammer myself, because I tryed to defend myself from these spammers, or of course I could just Pay SpamCop money and all will be fine, which by it's very definition is extortion.

I am calling on any Lawyer interested in taking on this case ProBono. I am interested only in putting SpamCop out of business. Yes I use to be a strong supporter, but any company or person that can even consider punishing the Victim as a solution does not deserve to be in business.

[Wazoo]

Moved to the Lounge as this is nothing but rant material ....

Note the lack of any specific detail, the lack of checking any FAQ data, on and on ....

The cartooney is simply taking things over the top.

[turetzsr]

...Before anyone else succumbs to the urge to respond -- please think carefully: is it really worth your time and effort? Proverbs such as "don't feed the troll" and "don't wrestle in the mud with pigs" come to mind.... <g>

[StevenUnderwood]

The Chanlenge Responce is a good way to check if there is a human beeing behind the email. Yes it is abused, and yes I understand their stand, the end result is Victimising the Victim, and no degree of that can ever be tolerated or considered a solution.

And yet you keep using the challenge/reponse system that is victimizing the victims? I am very confused.

You do understand that your "challenge" on any spam actually goes to another victim of spam, and that your system is increasing their spam load, correct.

(Steve T: Very little time or effort needed for this post... we have heard it all so often )

[turetzsr]

<snip>

(Steve T: Very little time or effort needed for this post... we have heard it all so often )

...And yet, you still gave it far more time and effort than it merited! <g>

[jongrose]

I have only been checking this forum recently, but it seems as though most of the complaints about SC come from users who use C/R email systems and don't understand why they are being blacklisted.

I don't run the forum, but may I politely suggest adding these two links to the stickies? (I know most people don't read stickies, but maybe it would help them understand better what their problems are, if they are directed to them).

I found these two articles in the Wikipedia which basically explains the problems with C/R email systems and how SpamCop works. I think they're both good and well written articles detailing the pros and cons of both.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Challenge-res..._spam_filtering

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spamcop

Just my http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/3294/2centssmallsi7.jpg

[Wazoo]

I don't run the forum, but may I politely suggest adding these two links to the stickies? (I know most people don't read stickies, but maybe it would help them understand better what their problems are, if they are directed to them).

Only if you can get everyone else from complaining that there are too many Pinned items, too much stuff in the FAQ, can't find any answers, not enough detail, too much detail, nothing understandable, insufficient technical stuff, etc. .... strangely, both of your suggested items already exist there, in the Dictionary, in the Glossary, in the Wiki, in oh-so-many existing Topics/Discussions .... but as you noted, it matters not to most ....

[A_Friend]

The cartooney is simply taking things over the top.

Cart00ney, cart00ney!

Can you spot the looney?

SCNR

A. Friend

[Telarin]

We needed a good cartooney, haven't had one in a couple weeks I think...

[Friasnet]

Wazoo, Interesting how you can only reply with insult, and sayig because your faq gives reason for this that is the end of it. Wrong!

turetzsr, again a moderator that can do no more then insult.

StevenUnderwood, Thank you there is a human beeing here. Didn't mean that to be confusing, but written in anger, I can see how it can be taken wrong. I am refering to SpamCops' treatment of the Chalenge Responce as being the Victimising of the Victim, not the Chalenge Responce, which is never spam. Yes the CR is as you explain exploited by the Spammers, but it does not send or foward any spam. Yes I see how others are getting this from forged emails, and that is not cool. But would not a spammer want to exploit a good thing to get rid of it. As for the DOS attacks, that is simply fixed with the rule of three repeats that most servers use. Such is a good counter measure. A simular counter measure for the CR, especialy in always active systems, like yahoo, hotmail, etc. would be to maintain and check a sent box against the CR for validity. Regardless when you put your minde to work, you can fix a good thing, counter the bad opposition, and not punish the Victims.

turetzsr, still of no value

jongrose, Thanks for the kind thought, but regardless sticky, faq, the rong is still the rong. Such a company as SpamCop took on a responcibility, and that responcibility is not to go around calling Victims Spammers. And frankly they need to face the music, and drop the heavy handed nonsence.

Wazoo, wow you do have a brain in there somewhere, too bad you don't engage it more often before opening your mouth, and respect that when you creat a problem, you are going to upset people, and have to answer to the problem you created. But yes too many stickys are too many stickys and therefor get ignored.

A_Friend, Another that can but insult.

Telarin, and yet another.

Please let me explain, insults, like their kin, cus words, are a result of letting your lower mind take over, and are an indication of being unable to let your cognative mind think things through, hence reactory instead of cognicent. Reactors explode, where only the human minde is capable of overcoming problems.

[GraemeL]

Please let me explain, insults, like their kin, cus words, are a result of letting your lower mind take over, and are an indication of being unable to let your cognative mind think things through, hence reactory instead of cognicent. Reactors explode, where only the human minde is capable of overcoming problems.

You show up out of nowhere, throwing around threats of lawsuits and expect to be treated civilly? Furrfu!

[jongrose]

jongrose, Thanks for the kind thought, but regardless sticky, faq, the rong is still the rong. Such a company as SpamCop took on a responcibility, and that responcibility is not to go around calling Victims Spammers. And frankly they need to face the music, and drop the heavy handed nonsence.

You're misunderstanding how the C/R system and SpamCop works. As such, I can tell you failed to read any of the stickies, or even my Wikipedia articles. Unfortunately, what is broken is not SpamCop, as it has been around for many years and has been successfully worked into many effective ways to combat spam. C/R systems are at best, useless, and at worst, harmful. If you, or anyone else is using a C/R system to combat spam, then you should expect it to fail, as it has been brought up time and time again that the whole concept is a total failure. If you use a C/R system you should expect your mailing host to be put on blacklists. If you paid money for a C/R software package, I would immediately contact that company and ask for a full refund.

Secondly, SpamCop is run in a fully responsible manner with many fail safes to prevent false reports, and then to resolve them if this happens. Again, unfortunately, using a C/R system will result in reports, of which they are not false. Anytime an email is sent to anyone, they have the right to decide whether or not it was requested by them. If it was not, then it is considered spam, pure and simple. Furthermore, SpamCop is not intended to be used as a blacklist by ISPs. If your ISP is using SpamCop as a blacklist, then you should be talking to them. SC is a tool for scoring potential spam, which is something many administrators also don't understand.

So, what it all comes down to is a lack of understanding from both end users and administrators of how these systems work. This is due to a lack of training, understanding, a failure to learn and research, or to even take the basic time to understand anything about the concepts mentioned in this thread.

I understand spam is a big problem, and many people attempt to provide simple solutions for end users, such as C/R email systems. There are thousands of software programs and email clients that attempt to curb the tide of junk mail, and some are better than others. There have even been companies that have been shut down as a result of trying to fight spam. But, what most people don't realize, is an even bigger problem than spam itself, is ignorance. Ignorance of security issues cause spam, and because people make the choice to remain ignorant, there will forever be spam. If more people would sit down and take the time to do a little reading, I think you would see that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

[A_Friend]

A_Friend, Another that can but insult.

Well, apparently I could say more, but OTOH, the topic of C/R has been extensively handled. So why should I write the same arguments again and again?

Look here for the last discussion of a CR-system (TDMA):

http://forum.spamcop.net/forums/index.php?...ost&p=50064

That's all I have to say about C/R. Can you dispute at least *one* of those arguments?

Good luck,

A. Friend

P.S: Threatening legal action without any substantial judicial knowledge is a sure-fire way to be the laughing stock in here. With a little more reading you could have easily avoided this embarrassment. Next time, I suggest you either read more or talk to a lawyer first.

--

“Speak when you are angry and you will make the best speech you will ever regret.” - Ambrose Bierce

[riptide44]

I have some questions?

1 is there a human being that monitors spam cop?

2 if a person uses challenge response what is wrong with that? buy filtering there email to keep spam out

how can this be bad?

3 how can spam cop declare a challenge responce server spam when all it does it make sure that there is a human being behind the email and not a type of bot.

4 does challenge responce stop the forwarding of spam, as far as i no it stops it dead in its trackes,is this true?

[Telarin]

Since you actually posed real questions rather than following the Ops example of just ranting and throwing around legal threats, I will be happy to address them as best I can.

1 is there a human being that monitors spam cop?

Yes, the deputies and admins monitor spamcop closely, and respond to reports from ISPs that a spam report may not be legitimate.

2 if a person uses challenge response what is wrong with that? buy filtering there email to keep spam out how can this be bad?

If that challenge actually went to the sender, it would not be a bad thing. Unfotunately, spam almost always uses a forged FROM header. Often those forged FROM headers are real email addresses of people that have nothing to do with the spam. If you're only talking one or two of these, its no big deal. Unfotunately, you're not talking about one or two. Spammers will often send out MILLIONS of emails using the same from address. How would you like to receive a million C/R challenges for messages that you didn't send? Could your mail server even handle that volume of email, or would those C/R challenges crash it?

C/R puts the cost of spam on an innocent third party, rather than on the sender where it belongs.

3 how can spam cop declare a challenge responce server spam when all it does it make sure that there is a human being behind the email and not a type of bot.

Any message sent to someone without their consent is spam.

4 does challenge responce stop the forwarding of spam, as far as i no it stops it dead in its trackes,is this true?

No, it simply pushes the problem onto an innocent 3rd party: the person whose email address the spammer used in the FROM header of the spam.

[turetzsr]

I have some questions?

1 is there a human being that monitors spam cop?

...Yes but probably not in the sense you mean. The normal process is for people receiving spam to submit reports, SpamCop uses an algorithm to decide programmatically whether, when and for how long to include the spam source on the blacklist. See "SpamCop FAQ" for more information.

2 if a person uses challenge response what is wrong with that? buy filtering there email to keep spam out how can this be bad?

...See SpamCop FAQ and other posts throughout these Fora for answers. Short answer is that most (if not all) C/R systems have no way of knowing whether they are sending their challenge to the e-mail address from which their correspondent sent the e-mail ("from" addresses can be forged).

3 how can spam cop declare a challenge responce server spam when all it does it make sure that there is a human being behind the email and not a type of bot.

...SpamCop doesn't declare anything to be spam. It defines for its users what may be reported as spam; the users decide what is spam. See discussions, including my brief answer, above, as to why C/R may be spam.

4 does challenge responce stop the forwarding of spam, as far as i no it stops it dead in its trackes,is this true?

...No (at least not true in all cases).

[riptide44]

If what i read is true?

question?

1 any body that uses a challenge responce program can or will be listed as a spamer so they will be blacklisted?

2 Is there a easer way to contact spam cop via phone , email ect so that the person using challenge responce will not be black listed.? And get a honest reply?

3 I like the idea of challenge responce just to make sure its not a form of bot/ spam.

4 most email programs have a auto reply tab? Isnt this a form of challenge responce?

5 wasnt spam cop using a challenge responce of some form?

sorry about question 5 because when i signed up it asked me for my email address so it could reply

to make sure i'm a valid email address.

1 WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE sorry cant spell?

[A_Friend]

I have some questions?

Asking nicely yields nice answers.

2 if a person uses challenge response what is wrong with that? buy filtering there email to keep spam out

how can this be bad?

Let me add a few points to my predecessors' answers:

- C/R does not filter, it delegates the decision wether a message is spam or not to someone else. It's just "passing the buck".

- Therefore, if a spammer manages to bypass the challenge (e.g. by using OCR), it's not spam anymore!

- Some people may find it impossible to pass the challenge (e.g. the blind or visually impaired)

- When two C/R systems collide, they may deadlock each other (challenging the challenge)

- C/R always implies your time is more valuable than mine.

3 how can spam cop declare a challenge responce server spam when all it does it make sure that there is a human being behind the email and not a type of bot.

If I receive messages from a C/R system I never sent mail to, it's unsolicited. Why should I not consider this spam?

4 does challenge responce stop the forwarding of spam, as far as i no it stops it dead in its trackes,is this true?

No. C/R just passes the buck.

One more thing: Let's assume someone is using C/R. I did not send him any mail, nevertheless I receive a challenge from his system because some spammer forged my address as the sender. What should I do?

a ) I ignore the challenge and won't be able to send him any email ever again, even if I wanted to do so?

b ) I acknowledge the challenge so the spam gets through. The recipient will probably blacklist me. Again I have no chance to contact him ever again.

Catch 22.

Good luck,

A. Friend

[StevenUnderwood]

StevenUnderwood, Thank you there is a human beeing here. Didn't mean that to be confusing, but written in anger, I can see how it can be taken wrong. I am refering to SpamCops' treatment of the Chalenge Responce as being the Victimising of the Victim, not the Chalenge Responce, which is never spam. Yes the CR is as you explain exploited by the Spammers, but it does not send or foward any spam. Yes I see how others are getting this from forged emails, and that is not cool. But would not a spammer want to exploit a good thing to get rid of it. As for the DOS attacks, that is simply fixed with the rule of three repeats that most servers use. Such is a good counter measure. A simular counter measure for the CR, especialy in always active systems, like yahoo, hotmail, etc. would be to maintain and check a sent box against the CR for validity. Regardless when you put your minde to work, you can fix a good thing, counter the bad opposition, and not punish the Victims.

You are using a different definition of spam than a lot of the world at this current time. You seem to be saying the content of the message makes it spam. Not everyone, but at least most of the email administrators in the word do not agree with your definition. It is the consent to use a specific email address that makes a message spam.

I use unique addresses for each organization I deal with. Though I did not report it through spamcop, I did complain to the sender of a message I got delivered to a different address than they were given, on a topic not directly related to the group.. They had collected the address from a common email we had both been sent (I also complained to that sender about exposing my address and not using BCC). That message was spam because they did not have authorization to use that address for that purpose.

I receive less than 3 spam messages in my inbox each week because I protect the addresses.

[riptide44]

I also want to thank every body for there reply so

THANK YOU

RIPTIDE44

[A_Friend]

If what i read is true?

question?

1 any body that uses a challenge responce program can or will be listed as a spamer so they will be blacklisted?

If you use C/R AND send mail to uninvolved third parties AND those affected will report you: Yes.

There are some C/Rs that send the challenge right within the rejection message in the SMTP dialogue, thereby making sure challenges are only sent to the original sender while he is *still* connected. This is the only way you can make sure not to trouble others.

2 Is there a easer way to contact spam cop via phone , email ect so that the person using challenge responce will not be black listed.? And get a honest reply?

You may contact the deputies. However, spam is spam. And spammers will be blacklisted.

3 I like the idea of challenge responce just to make sure its not a form of bot/ spam.

I don't like the idea of receiving answers to mails I never sent in the first place.

4 most email programs have a auto reply tab? Isnt this a form of challenge responce?

Using auto replies is another bad idea nowadays. Imaging a spammer forging *your* email address as the sender. So you receive houndreds or thousands of "non-deliverable", "out-of-office", "on-vacation", etc. replies. You'd like that? Probably not. Neither do I.

You may want to read:

http://www.spamcop.net/fom-serve/cache/329.html

It pretty much explains everything.

5 wasnt spam cop using a challenge responce of some form?

sorry about question 5 because when i signed up it asked me for my email address so it could reply

to make sure i'm a valid email address.

1 WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE sorry cant spell?

Confirmed Opt-In is not Challenge/Response.

Good luck,

A. Friend

[Telarin]

1 any body that uses a challenge responce program can or will be listed as a spamer so they will be blacklisted?

If they send challenges to people that did not first send them any kind of message, then yes.

2 Is there a easer way to contact spam cop via phone , email ect so that the person using challenge responce will not be black listed.? And get a honest reply?

There are webforms and email addresses provided on the main spamcop site to contact the deputies, however, since challenges sent to 3rd parties and spamtraps ARE spam, these disputes would generally fall under the category of "meritless" and would not do you any good.

3 I like the idea of challenge responce just to make sure its not a form of bot/ spam.

Umm, thats not really a question.

4 most email programs have a auto reply tab? Isnt this a form of challenge responce?

Yes, and you can be listed for these as well if you are not using some kind of system to ensure that they are only sent to the person that sent the original message. The best way to do this is by using a whitelist system to responses are only sent to known contacts.

5 wasnt spam cop using a challenge responce of some form?

Email validation and C/R do share some similarities, however, they are very different. The form that you filled out required human interaction to fill it out, so we already know that you are a human and not a bot.

The email validation is sent out to determine that the email address you provided really belongs to you. The form also typically will have limits to prevent a malicious user from abusing it to send unwanted validation emails to multiple people or to one purson multiple times.

Since C/R responds to each and every spam with a forged FROM address, and C/R systems on different mail servers are unaware of each other, there are no such limitations, and it is easy for the combined resources of the internet to bring a single mail server to a grinding halt.

[StevenUnderwood]

I have some questions?

1 is there a human being that monitors spam cop?

2 if a person uses challenge response what is wrong with that? buy filtering there email to keep spam out

how can this be bad?

3 how can spam cop declare a challenge responce server spam when all it does it make sure that there is a human being behind the email and not a type of bot.

4 does challenge responce stop the forwarding of spam, as far as i no it stops it dead in its trackes,is this true?

1. It is humans making the reports and there are humans responding to complaints within the "spamcop organization", known collectively as deputies.

2. The problem with C/R basically comes down to the person being protected by the system redistributing the problem to the innocent victims who had their address forged as the sender. A spammer sends out 1 million spam messages with the same sender information. If 25% of people used C/R, then that person would receive a challenge for those 250000 messages. You have greatly affected that one person, but also affected the entire internet community by sending an additional 250000 messages across it.

3. If the person did not send the original, the challenge is unsolicited and reportable as such. If enough people report them, you have just satisfied the bulk portion of UBE, thus spam.

4. It usually does not forward the original message (which has already been transferred across the internet), but then sends its own message, usually to an innocent 3rd party.

If you could get 100% of the world to use C/R, it is possible it could work if you could get all of the C/R programs to agree on a system, but that will never happen. Until then, those protected by C/R are abusing others and the internet.

[turetzsr]

<snip>

If what i read is true?

...Absolutely! We all tell the truth here (to the best of our knowledge and experience). <g>

question?

1 any body that uses a challenge responce program can or will be listed as a spamer so they will be blacklisted?

...Not necessarily. If the C/R program never sends a challenge that meets the criteria of any blacklist/blocklist, then the person using the C/R system will not be listed. Note: SpamCop never lists an individual person, it only lists IP addresses.

2 Is there a easer way to contact spam cop via phone , email ect so that the person using challenge responce will not be black listed.?

...No. SpamCop does not blacklist individuals. SpamCop listing (and delisting) of IP addresses that are spam sources is automatic. E-mail and form contacts are available for administrators whose IP addresses are being listed due to mistaken or invalid reporting by SpamCop users but IMHO this is not the situation you are suggesting has occurred.

And get a honest reply?

..."We" (tinw) here can not guarantee the honesty of any reply you get from anyone but SpamCop staff are presumed to be as honest as they can be, given legal and professional obligations.

3 I like the idea of challenge responce just to make sure its not a form of bot/ spam.

...And your question is...?

4 most email programs have a auto reply tab? Isnt this a form of challenge responce?

...No but it could be misused in a manner that causes the same problem -- if it replies to the "from" address in the e-mail internet header, it could be sending e-mail to someone who does not want it and should not be sent it (if the "from" header is forged).

5 wasnt spam cop using a challenge responce of some form?

sorry about question 5 because when i signed up it asked me for my email address so it could reply

to make sure i'm a valid email address.

<snip>

...No, that is not what is commonly meant by a C/R system. If I understand correctly, a single e-mail reply to an attempt to register for a service is not considered to be spam (although I, personally, might consider it such, as it was sent to me without my consent). See SpamCop FAQ entry labeled "Am I running mailing lists responsibly? Updated!" link labeled "Application Note: Guidelines for proper mailing list management" section labeled "Closed Loop Confirmation."