Soon, we'll not be able to report multiple spams

[Phazin]

Hello all,

for some months, french ISP are acting to reduce spam sending; now, they stop all sent mails containing spams and forbidden web adresses, and consequently stop mails sent to spamcop.

Then I used an hotmail account to report spam, but Microsoft recently decided to stop Hotmail access via Outlook Express on June 30, 2008 (Microsoft to kill Hotmail access via Outlook Express).

On my side, I tried to explain that to my ISP several times without success (and most of the hotliners didn't understand the pb ! ).

Question to Spamcop dev: as a lot of countries may apply such measures, do you plan another client solution to transmit easily multiple spams to Spamcop ?

Thanks.

Ps: excuse my poor english

[Farelf]

Moved from Spamcop Email Systems and Accounts - a better fit here, I think

...for some months, french ISP are acting to reduce spam sending; now, they stop all sent mails containing spams and forbidden web adresses, and consequently stop mails sent to spamcop.

That is bad news - but ISPs have been doing that for some time - see http://forum.spamcop.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=2782

Maybe we should add your ISP to the list? Note, sometimes sending a copy of the submission email to the ISP will succeed in punching it through to SpamCop, as you will see mentioned. That doesn't work in my case though (my ISP also blocks )

... Then I used an hotmail account to report spam, but Microsoft recently decided to stop Hotmail access via Outlook Express on June 30, 2008 (Microsoft to kill Hotmail access via Outlook Express).

Yes, that was also mentioned in http://forum.spamcop.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=9382 - which I guess you saw.

... On my side, I tried to explain that to my ISP several times without success (and most of the hotliners didn't understand the pb ! ). ...

Sometimes ISPs come to understand - as in http://forum.spamcop.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=5849

...Question to Spamcop dev: as a lot of countries may apply such measures, do you plan another client solution to transmit easily multiple spams to Spamcop ?

Thanks.

We don't seem to get any attention here from the development people. Perhaps other members here can suggest workarounds?

...Ps: excuse my poor english

No apology needed - your English is fine.

[craigt]

One suggestion (the method that I use) is reporting the spam via SpamCop SMTP. The only downside of this is that you need the paid mailbox.

[SpamCopAdmin]

do you plan another client solution to transmit easily multiple spams to Spamcop ?

There isn't much we can do to change how your service provider operates their network.

The key is "easily."

There has been talk about us accepting zipped submissions in order to circumvent outgoing spam filters, but the project has been stalled for two years now. Mostly because nobody believes there will be very many users willing to go to all that trouble to send in spam for reporting.

- Don D'Minion - SpamCop Admin -

[Wazoo]

There has been talk about us accepting zipped submissions in order to circumvent outgoing spam filters, but the project has been stalled for two years now.

Internal communications obviously It's actually interesting in that the question actually hasn't been asked in the 'support' venues in quite a long while.

Mostly because nobody believes there will be very many users willing to go to all that trouble to send in spam for reporting.

And yet another headache involved with that, as noted by the continuous complaints and problems involved with folks not having a handle on how to use their e-mail tool of choice to correctly submit a spam for parsing in the first place. Then having to add in the countless different available archiving tools to then try and create a 'correct' compressed file with the correct e-mail format/content package within a .zip archive. The FAQ building exercise needed would be daunting. Then of course, all the follow-on issues, why just .zip, what about .rar, .7up, etc ...?????

[Lking]

...as noted by the continuous complaints and problems involved with folks not having a handle on how to use their e-mail tool

I have noted a trend. A large number of "the continuous complaints" seem to come from Hotmail, Gmail, etc. users and users of Outlook Express or what ever default mail app. Now I don't want to sound like a snob but you do tend to get what you pay for.

In this case there are 2 points: 1) If your ISP is not providing the type of service you want, change. 2) Hotmail/Gmail i.e. the ISP, and their throw away addresses have been a source of much domestic spam.

It is a constant issue when you are trying to get applications to work with each other; Do you try to make the target app work in every situation with everything, or suggest that using some applications may be easier to use than others.

There is also the value of suggesting that some ISPs/applications provide better anti-spam service to the user, besides being easier to use with SpamCop.

Perhaps in addition to being a forum to help people deal with SpamCop the forum could also find a way to suggest other ways to reduce the bother of spam by suggesting changes in mail application or options or suggesting that $30/month for a different ISP might also be a good investment.

But then again...

[StevenUnderwood]

I have noted a trend. A large number of "the continuous complaints" seem to come from Hotmail, Gmail, etc.

I just went through 500+ of my most recent reports and foung one to google, a few each to the major cable companies in the US and the major majority (+95%) coming from other countries.

Now my spam profile may be different from yours, but I would challange that "a large number of the continuous complaints" come from the free email providers. From what I have seen they are fairly whitehat in their handling of spammers. The scripters may get a few through, but they seem to shut them down pretty quickly as well. If others are seeing what you are, then I amend that statement.

[Farelf]

I just went through 500+ of my most recent reports and foung one to google, a few each to the major cable companies in the US and the major majority (+95%) coming from other countries. ...

That's fairly much what I see too - East Asia, Eastern Europe, a bit of South America. Not that long ago (before botnets) it was mostly US.

Another matter - just some comments on living with ISP blocking (both inwards and outwards), as I have experienced it. Clearly there is variability in the experience but maybe there are some points of commonality as well.

It is inconsistent/asymetric, meaning:

- mostly, very little spam gets through to me

- mostly, that which does get in is subsequently blocked for email submission, getting out.

But then ...

- sometimes significant volumes do (seemingly) 'leak' in

- when that happens the outwards filtering seems to leak too - it is often possible to email spam submissions then.

Almost as if they have immunity (no way to actually make that assertion from inside the quarantine line):

- when oversize 'mainsleaze'¹ spam is received it can usually be submitted for reporting by email (provided, it may be, it is the first attachment in any multiple submission).

What has worked for some others doesn't for me -

- copying my ISP (going to a supposedly unfiltered support account) into SC submissions has made no difference to anything.

I can turn the filtering off (not an option for all) but ...

- turning off the ISP's filter allows it all in (in significant volume)

- spam not filtered inwards is almost always filtered outwards - as above.

Consequently much of my submission activity is using the paste-in webform.

¹'Mainsleaze' is, I think, deputy Ellen's term but I borrow it here to mean no bogosity in the headers, the From: address is the address of the actual sender, the payload web links are to sites owned by the same entity and the sales message is typically 'ornamented' by a bloated graphic in the 120-200k - or greater! - range (some filter rules assume spam will be small which might make that a practical ploy). And they don't accept/receive SC reports. Recent examples being managed.com and marliness.net.

I think the main motivation of ISP filtering in this instance has little/nothing to do directly with actually reducing spam volumes on the internet but much to do with customer complaints about their inboxes being bombed and maybe even more to do with minimum cost compliance with regulatory standards which in some parts of the world obligate some ill-defined ISP action (client email accounts of course have no part in the zombie/botnet model which is actually responsible for the high volumes of spam). "Sweeping it under the carpet," best describes it I think and, while it interferes with the more proactive approach to the problem, one can live with it if there is no way out. But (full) reporting goes way, way down. Quick reporting would be similarly affected.

[Miss Betsy]

I think the main motivation of ISP filtering in this instance has little/nothing to do directly with actually reducing spam volumes on the internet but much to do with customer complaints about their inboxes being bombed and maybe even more to do with minimum cost compliance with regulatory standards which in some parts of the world obligate some ill-defined ISP action (client email accounts of course have no part in the zombie/botnet model which is actually responsible for the high volumes of spam). "Sweeping it under the carpet," best describes it I think and, while it interferes with the more proactive approach to the problem, one can live with it if there is no way out.

I agree with you that ISP filtering has little to do with any effort to 'stop' spam.

The inward filtering is probably in response to people who discovered that changing addresses reduced spam for a while, but didn't realize that they could change addresses without changing providers. It is also cost effective - zombie/botnets can be stopped at the server level without getting any customers upset and save some bandwidth. The outward filtering allows them to accept lots of questionable email just in case a customer has a correspondent who is using an ISP who allows spammers without sending NDRs to spam traps.

Techies seem to have almost zilch verbal social communication skills - that's not to say they are not generous, loving individuals - they just don't sound like it. The other side of a business would be the marketing department who speaks in broad, general terms and doesn't want to be bothered with details. You can see how they are bound to have problems and tend to 'give up' trying to make the other understand. The business manager tries to keep both happy at the least cost possible to the business. As a result, the Techies push for solutions that they can control so that they don't have to explain to marketing and business managers how it is being done - they just produce results. As long as their mail server is neither sending spam nor accepting spam, they are happy. Computers like zombies don't worry them because those computers can be blocked by the entire world and it doesn't affect their mail server.

I personally believe that techies on the dark side work to evade filters - that's when all of a sudden there is a batch of humanly identifiable spam - all very similar. The darkside techie has won. When they stop, the techie for the ISP has won. The only other spam that ever gets through are really criminal spam with big payoffs like 419 scams and phishing attempts who can afford to spend a little extra time to evade filters by not sending out with hundreds of bccs.

Almost no spam goes to my Hotmail Junk Folder (with my preferences set to 'low'). It either doesn't arrive or it goes to my inbox. And I don't get enough to make reporting a chore - even by the spamcop website. So I don't see what the problem is. If you get the Windows Live program, you can still move all your spam from another account to a Hotmail folder and send it as an attachment from Hotmail if your ISP won't allow outgoing spamcop submissions.

Miss Betsy

[Phazin]

Farelf, thanks for these links, I read all... (slowly)

Maybe we should add your ISP to the list?

why not ... that is neuf.fr with three million subscribers.

Note, sometimes sending a copy of the submission email to the ISP will succeed in punching it through to SpamCop, as you will see mentioned...

Sometimes ISPs come to understand...

no hope on this side; french IPSs do extra tasks only if there is financial gains on the key, or under pressure of the Law or the Net surveillance authorities (money, money, always money ! )

Plus ca change, plus cest la meme chose

One suggestion (the method that I use) is reporting the spam via SpamCop SMTP. The only downside of this is that you need the paid mailbox.

That's the way I used: with Outlook Express; in my contacts list, I click on SpamCop (my submit mailbox); this opens a blank mail; then I select all the spams, drag&drop the multi-selection in a new mail, and send it; less than five mouse clicks; that's easy.

But after June 30, 2008, this will work no more.

As said SpamCopAdmin, "easily" is the key-word; we are volunteers, but if the task is too complex, a lot of us will leave.

There has been talk about us accepting zipped submissions in order to circumvent outgoing spam filters, but the project has been stalled for two years now.

yes, but anti-virus also scan zip files (and zip files included in mails ??).

Mostly because nobody believes there will be very many users willing to go to all that trouble to send in spam for reporting.

This may change soon with MS choices to stop DAV protocol.

I have noted a trend. A large number of "the continuous complaints" seem to come from Hotmail, Gmail, etc. users and users of Outlook Express or what ever default mail app. Now I don't want to sound like a snob but you do tend to get what you pay for.

In this case there are 2 points: 1) If your ISP is not providing the type of service you want, change. 2) Hotmail/Gmail i.e. the ISP, and their throw away addresses have been a source of much domestic spam.

About spam reporting, all the ISP (in France) act in the same way under government pressure, and apply outgoing spam filters; changing of ISP is useless.

Mails accounts like Gmail, Yahoo and my ISP account use their owns POP servers, but the same SMTP server provided by my ISP to send mails ! So, all my reports are stopped, whichever the mailbox used.

Hotmail is a special case, which uses DAV protocol over HTTP, and my ISP doesn't filter HTTP (what luck !); that's why we can still use Hotmail to report, via Outlook Express for its ease of use (with Hotmail support).

But primarily there is no problem with mail applications or options.

As Microsoft is recommending, we can install Windows Live Mail, which supports Hotmail (I didn't try); but in a near future, MS will certainly choose to stop spams from Hotmail, and the problem will come back.

That's why I think that the problem may be definitively solved only by the SpamCop devs, to avoid use of SMTP port25 to transmit reports; maybe using Java scri_pt or applets, or via "Attachments files upload" as in Invision Power Board software.

[Lking]

Looking at my academic background there is evidence that I took english as a second language, but I don't think I mangled my post that badly! Not that it makes much difference, let me expand my comments.

...as noted by the continuous complaints and problems involved with folks not having a handle on how to use their e-mail tool

I have noted a trend. A large number of "the continuous complaints" seem to come from Hotmail, Gmail, etc. users and users of Outlook Express or what ever default mail app. Now I don't want to sound like a snob but you do tend to get what you pay for.

Wazoo was suggesting that adding zip to the reporting process would just add to the 'continuous complaints and problems' for some with reporting spam to spamcop.

To his comment, I intended to add I thought that those that were complaining seemed to be users of Hotmail, Gmail and/or Outlook. No I did not do an analysis of the postings on this or other forums. Just that I noticed that those that use free providers seem to be those that are having problems.

In this case there are 2 points: 1) If your ISP is not providing the type of service you want, change. 2) Hotmail/Gmail i.e. the ISP, and their throw away addresses have been a source of much domestic spam.

Point 1: As was correctly pointed out my experience and suggestion was anglo-centric. Thank you for reminding me of the diversity of this forum.

Point 2: Don't know how to describe domestic spam with more clarity. I guess I could have indicated that 'of the spam I receive, the 5% that comes for domestic, American, sources appears to come mainly from Hotmail/Gmail throw away addresses.'

Of course this meta-discussion has nothing to do with reducing spam, reporting spam or assisting the OP

[StevenUnderwood]

QUOTE(craigt [at] Apr 28 2008, 06:53 PM)

One suggestion (the method that I use) is reporting the spam via SpamCop SMTP. The only downside of this is that you need the paid mailbox.

That's the way I used: with Outlook Express; in my contacts list, I click on SpamCop (my submit mailbox); this opens a blank mail; then I select all the spams, drag&drop the multi-selection in a new mail, and send it; less than five mouse clicks; that's easy.

But after June 30, 2008, this will work no more.

What craigt was sugesting (I believe) is paying for a SpamCop email account and using SpamCop's SMTP server to send the spam to Spamcop rather than your ISP's SMTP server which is filtering the messages.

If the June 30 date refers to not being able to POP your messages from hotmail, then that wull obviously not help you.

[Phazin]

Looking at my academic background there is evidence that I took english as a second language, but I don't think I mangled my post that badly! Not that it makes much difference, let me expand my comments.

OK Lking, no problem, I misunderstood; no english experience, just from school and a few at work

What craigt was sugesting (I believe) is paying for a SpamCop email account and using SpamCop's SMTP server to send the spam to Spamcop rather than your ISP's SMTP server which is filtering the messages.

When sending, the first SMTP server in the route is the one of the ISP; I don't think we may have direct access to SpamCop's SMTP server (maybe in US but not from France).

If the June 30 date refers to not being able to POP your messages from hotmail, then that wull obviously not help you.

As I said earlier, the problem will be to send mails including spams to Spamcop (SMTP), no problem to receive results (with pop).

[Telarin]

Yes, you can send directly from SpamCop's SMTP server if you have a paid email account. Even if your ISP is blocking outbound traffic on port 25, SpamCop provides an alternate "non-standard" port that can be used to send to their SMTP servers.

[Phazin]

Hi all,

Telarin, great thanks for your technical explanations; Spamcops may provide an alternate "non-standard" port to transmit spam reports, allowing to bypass the ISP SMTP server. OK now ! (but I didn't find anything about that on their portal).

And this explains Craigt suggestion; reporting spam via Spamcop SMTP is possible . . . with an alternate port ! In this case, spam reports don't route as SMTP requests.

So Spamcop has a technical solution already in place.

However, I'll not pay to report spams; I report to act against spammers and for a cleaner Internet, but report confirmations take some times.

If Spamcop want to keep volunteer reporters, they will have to open access to the alternate port to directly join their servers.

Thanks again.

Ph.

[Telarin]

Unfortunately, that would also open up those same servers to abuse by spammers, so it is not likely to happen. I would suggest continuing to complain to your ISP, preferrably on a daily basis, and very loudly, about the reliability of their email delivery. Hopefully if they get enough "squeeky wheels" they will fix the problem. Several ISPs, including Comcast here in the US with who-knows-how-many millions of subscribers punched a hole in their outbound filtering to allow spammy looking emails to be delivered to spamcop.net email addresses. That allows their users to send out their reports, and with most filtering systems is not very difficult to do.

[Farelf]

... And I don't get enough to make reporting a chore - even by the spamcop website. So I don't see what the problem is. If you get the Windows Live program, you can still move all your spam from another account to a Hotmail folder and send it as an attachment from Hotmail if your ISP won't allow outgoing spamcop submissions.

I don't know how to do that offhand but your experience is not too different to my present situation with ISP inwards filtering on - when there is a surge, as mentioned, my email submissions seem to work - otherwise I get very little spam. But that (low volumes through the filter) is a problem for the internet in general. Just because the bulk of it is not reaching me doesn't mean it isn't there. It is a pity it can't be allowed out, if I allow it in, so it can be reported and thus contribute to the SCbl listing algorithm and/or maybe provide the crucial report to some responsive ISP that gets another zombie pulled, whatever. But ....

...Several ISPs, including Comcast here in the US with who-knows-how-many millions of subscribers punched a hole in their outbound filtering to allow spammy looking emails to be delivered to spamcop.net email addresses. That allows their users to send out their reports, and with most filtering systems is not very difficult to do.

A little early for me to be shouting "Hallelujah" but very recently almost all of my email submissions have been getting through, even when there is low volume (after surges). Either Michael (iinet founder & CEO) has relented or he is running out of puff on the outwards filtering front. If this keeps up I shall turn my account (inwards) filtering off and try to resume larger scale reporting on the resultant flood.

[Phazin]

Unfortunately, that would also open up those same servers to abuse by spammers, so it is not likely to happen. I would suggest continuing to complain to your ISP, preferrably on a daily basis, and very loudly, about the reliability of their email delivery. Hopefully if they get enough "squeeky wheels" they will fix the problem. Several ISPs, including Comcast here in the US with who-knows-how-many millions of subscribers punched a hole in their outbound filtering to allow spammy looking emails to be delivered to spamcop.net email addresses. That allows their users to send out their reports, and with most filtering systems is not very difficult to do.

In brief, our ISPs (the most of) are deaf -a celebrity said autistic-; they work only to sign contracts with new clients, and to debit their bank account. They don't answer mails, or registred mails, or formal notices; they don't go to hearings (in court).

If the ISP equipment doesn't work at the first power-on, there is nobody to repair, even if the problems come from ISP internal (most cases). The hotline is often (always) busy, and if you hold (0,34euros/min), they conclude "our material is OK, thus the problem comes from your home".

But monthly debits are always done, even often after termination (some "mystakes" they said).

The more determined people must procecute to be paid back, and ISPs lose at each time. But most of the debited people give up (after threat and bailiff letters, or they don't know their rights, where to get help, or the sum is too small to go to court), and ISPs gain much more with these thousand of small abuses than they loose at court. "It's so easy, why to stop !!"

Some projects of laws about classactions are in government papers for two years.

That's a short view of the context.

So yes, we can complain loudly a few times, and then see our ADSL line to break down mysteriously ! (and join the paid hotline, ask a payback that never come -for the failure, the expenses-, go to court, etc, the loop to make ISPs to grow fat) :angry:

Maybe Spamcop might join ISPs to strengthen our requests, and ask them to add a hole in their out-going spam filters, or apply more security restrictions for the volunteers (the same as paid accounts) ?

[Miss Betsy]

Maybe Spamcop might join ISPs to strengthen our requests, and ask them to add a hole in their out-going spam filters, or apply more security restrictions for the volunteers (the same as paid accounts) ?

You could send an email to the deputies with the name of your ISP and see if they would talk to them. IIRC they have talked directly to some providers.

But if you have a hotmail account, you can still send spam via hotmail to the spamcop parser with the new Windows Live program.

Miss Betsy

[Phazin]

You could send an email to the deputies with the name of your ISP and see if they would talk to them. IIRC they have talked directly to some providers.

Hello Miss Betsy

yes, I'll try that; maybe the ISP will pay more attention.

But if you have a hotmail account, you can still send spam via hotmail to the spamcop parser with the new Windows Live program.

Yes, but soon, MS will certainly choose to stop spams from Hotmail, and the problem will recur.

Thank you all.

Ph