Forums vs. Newsgroups

[dbiel]

It implies that it is at least a tolerated medium for user-to-user support but that toleration can end at any moment....

Very true, but the same could be said for the Forums.

[Miss Betsy]

Steve T..It implies that it is at least a tolerated medium for user-to-user support but that toleration can end at any moment.

dbiel..Very true, but the same could be said for the Forums.

JT specifically stated that there would be no 'official' support via the email ng when he created the forum. When Mailhosts was started, Julian stated he was posting in the Forum because he understood that was the place to reach users.

I don't think either the forum or the ng is at all 'official' now but most applications do provide a way (usually a forum nowadays) for users to discuss things. That probably means that there will continue to be both a forum and ng as long as there are users using them.

My remembered impression of JT's comments in various exchanges is more or less that as long as nobody bugged him, he'd provide the servers for the ngs and the forum. If he doesn't, then probably Ironport would make some other provision since user groups are pretty standard, but it might not be the same as it is now.

But that's all an educated guess on my part (and maybe not even an 'educated' guess <g>).

Miss Betsy

[Wazoo]

JT specifically stated that there would be no 'official' support via the email ng when he created the forum.

Currently, the posts are stil available in the archive in which he actually stated that "all / most" of the newsgroups were going to disappear. That's what started the whole battle-zone thing.

When Mailhosts was started, Julian stated he was posting in the Forum because he understood that was the place to reach users.

I personally still believe that Julian posted that into the Forum as it was going to be a 'limited' test, as there were so few Forum users at the time. That someone took that post and placed it into the newsgroups (with much attitude) was a mistake on their part, but ..... ancient history now ....

Had a whole bunch of stuff typed in here, then realized I was in the Lounge area .... so snipped here ...

I dropped yet another post in the newsgroups, but not really in the mood to bring the 'attutude' over here right now .... basically pointing out that "the Forum issue" has been primarily "my" doing, stating that if I hadn't spent the time trying to "do" things, add things, enhance things, create things, this Forum wouldn't take the "time, management, resources, etc., etc., etc." that has been made a challenge "over there" .... That this thing is still running on an 800MHz P-III system hardly seems to justify the thought that resources are being "devoted" to the Forum .....

And yes, there was mention made of the "great Moderating team" here, the folks that joined in to help with stuff I started, and I'll definitely repeat my thanks here again for all involved for that assist. Much appreciated.

and with that, back to trying to handle some of the folks' issues ....

[turetzsr]

It implies that it is at least a tolerated medium for user-to-user support but that toleration can end at any moment.

Very true, but the same could be said for the Forums.

...The key difference being that JT has publicly announced that he may decommission the newsgroups but has made no such statement (at least, not that I've seen) about the Forums.

<snip>

My remembered impression of JT's comments in various exchanges is more or less that as long as nobody bugged him, he'd provide the servers for the ngs and the forum.

<snip>

...IMO, that statement (with respect to the forum) does not jibe with the exchanges Wazoo has reported between him and JT about forum software and Wazoo rights to the Forum server and database, which certainly seem to me to fall under the category of "bugging." <g> If JT had any thoughts of decommissioning the Forums (as he has said he might very well do with the newsgroups), I don't see why he would work with Wazoo to keep the Forums going.

[dbiel]

May be I am out in left field, but I do think I see Mike Easter's point.

So I will restate the facts as I know them.

Way back when, JT made a decision to install the Forum with the intent that it would replace the newsgroup as related to email support.

But time has pasted, and where are we today.

spamcop.mail is still alive but is not referenced to by any of the official documents. But to say that that in itself is evidence that all support has been shifted to the forums does not hold water based on the fact that those same documents have not been updated to correctly point to the forums either.

As far as official support from paid employees, very little is found in either the newsgroups or the forums; so much for using that as an argument for a shift in support.

So lets look at a different issue.

When an announcement is posted by paid staff regarding SpamCop Email service today, where is it most likely to be posted. Lately the answer would seem to be the newsgroups, with Wazoo taking it on himself to make sure it also gets posted in the forums. So based on the single fact it might appear the that newsgroups have more official support than the forums. The reality is that both are simply left to run on their own, being "managed" by their own set of unpaid volunteers.

If you pull the volunteers out of the picture, both the newsgroups and forums would be dead.

As far as the current hard disk issue with the newsgroup archives, I believe that is simply time running it's course.

I may be wrong, but I believe that the forums are still running on the same hardware as they were when they were first installed; so even that would not give any credence to a shift in support between the newsgroups and forums. The forums have had a lot more tweeking, but this is simply because Wazoo (unpaid volunteer) has gotten involved and has taken it on himself to do so. Over time he as proved his worth and capabilities to JT who has slowly given him more access to the hardware to better support the software.

The forums have basically been left to volunteers to run, just as have the newsgroups have.

It appears that none of the newsgroup or forum volunteers have much if any influence over those who maintain the official web site as trying to get even the simplest of corrections made to the official FAQ has proven an impossible task (though on a rare occasion a few items have been revised).

So where do we go from here?

For those of us who find the SpamCop tool set useful and feel like trying to help others use it, we will continue to work in the newsgroups and/or forums; and who knows, maybe some day TPTB may actually decide to get a bit more involved and provide some basic direction and guidance to the SpamCop volunteers as well as being willing to fix or change the Official FAQ. But I for one, would not hold my breath.

[Miss Betsy]

Very true, but the same could be said for the Forums....The key difference being that JT has publicly announced that he may decommission the newsgroups but has made no such statement (at least, not that I've seen) about the Forums.

...IMO, that statement (with respect to the forum) does not jibe with the exchanges Wazoo has reported between him and JT about forum software and Wazoo rights to the Forum server and database, which certainly seem to me to fall under the category of "bugging." <g> If JT had any thoughts of decommissioning the Forums (as he has said he might very well do with the newsgroups), I don't see why he would work with Wazoo to keep the Forums going.

Wazoo has not always had an easy time getting JT's ear. So far, JT has not considered Wazoo's repeated attempts to reach him concerning forum issues as 'bugging' (and probably would not since they are technical questions, not moderator questions). However, his attitude has always been 'OK - as long as I don't have to do anything except maintain the server' from my perspective.

And that means that if Wazoo no longer can maintain all that he does, then things might change rapidly.

Time for hurrahs for Wazoo here!

Miss Betsy

[turetzsr]

<snip>

spamcop.mail is still alive but is not referenced to by any of the official documents. But to say that that in itself is evidence that all support has been shifted to the forums does not hold water based on the fact that those same documents have not been updated to correctly point to the forums either.

As far as official support from paid employees, very little is found in either the newsgroups or the forums; so much for using that as an argument for a shift in support.

<snip>

...Well, consider Wazoo's reply in thread "Can't log in to SC email" -- JT posted to the Forum but not to the newsgroup. I believe that is telling, not to mention conclusive (although not in and of itself but in conjunction with other evidence).

[dbiel]

...Well, consider Wazoo's reply in thread "Can't log in to SC email" -- JT posted to the Forum but not to the newsgroup. I believe that is telling, not to mention conclusive (although not in and of itself but in conjunction with other evidence).

I did take note of that (which by the way came after my post that you quoted)

The following is a history of his most recent posts:

Can't log in to SC email Posted on: Jul 3 2006, 02:18 PM

Secureserver, 553 "relaying denied" Posted on: Dec 1 2005, 09:08 PM

Mail forwarded from spamcop is delayed to POP Posted on: Feb 9 2005, 07:54 PM

3 posts in 17 months

And the most recent posts by Ellen regarding the email service announcements were in the Newsgroups, not the Forum.

But JT's post, I must admit, makes drawing conclusions more difficult.

Yet remember that JT's post was a REPLY to an existing Forum topic rather than an independant announcement as well as being a response to Wazoo's phone conversation which would tend to lead one to the Forums rather than the newsgroups.

So at this point, I am unable to draw any conclusions, just not enought current data to draw on, and what there is falls on both sides.

So will just wait and see what happens.

[turetzsr]

<snip>

And the most recent posts by Ellen regarding the email service announcements were in the Newsgroups, not the Forum.

...True, but IMO Ellen's choices regarding where to post is not relevant to this discussion -- she isn't the one making decisions about the future of the Forums and the newsgroups. That's JT's (and only JT's) decision.

[dbiel]

Copied over from POP's post in the newsgroup. The newsgroup version of this topic has been very active

OK, O N E M O R E T I M E :

Haven't said this for quite awhile, so I'll pick this point to chime in.

Would not -some- of the confusion/problems/opportunities/abilities of both the forum and newsgroups be well served by a monthly FAQ posting?

Miss Betsy tried that for a while with the "Why am I Blocked?" creation. I followed suit a few times with a Subject Line list of the single-page-access-version I hacked together (and then expanded by the work and effort of many) .... I distinctly remember even you offering some accolades at the time ...

I recall that, and I think I recall that the content was very good. I could be wrong, but I don't recall that as being set as a periodic FAQ for the group, but rather for a linked FAQ; right?

Sorry if I'm wrong, but that's not what I meant. I meant a clear, concise FAQ which is posted, say, monthly, for all to read or ignore, as the case may be.

however, the constant negativity solved the problem with those postings ....

Yes, I recall that also. That negativity seems to "solve the problem" with a lot of things. It was turned into a free for all of occasionally funny, sometimes silly proportions. Dbiel seems to be on the right track, though I think it's going to take some new blood to get anything moving and to change this culture of "Only I know the facts" that's happened. I don't see him getting much serious support for this effort; either that or there are things going on behind the scenes in secret that are just now

coming out. That's not necessarily bad; just pointing out my opinions etc.

One for the groups, another for the forum,

Technically good for the newsgroups to keep up with the aging off of old posts,

Seriously, how much are the old posts ever used other than by people looking to research something for a FAQ or document they want to work on? IMO ONLY, their only value is for a lurker to see who's who on the groups. They're hard to search, as are the forum posts too, because of newbie structures, lack of subject forms, etc etc., and are full of threads so long and tedious as to put one off if they should come across something applicalble, or the answer has become hidden in a spate of words unrelated to the posts that one cannot find it. It's like a lot of people

want to replace the "pretty" of the forums with lots of informative words when all the poster asked for was a link to Spamcop. OK, I'm exaggerating but I think many will see what I mean.

not needed for the Forum as the links are placed in numerous places to get to the current copies ... two at the top of every page, one that opens up a new browser instance, the other that either reuses the existing browser window or opens a new tabbed page, depending on the browser and configuration .... However, both defeated by the "I don't want to read anything, I just want to make my point here and now" type of poster ....

Yup, that's good. I read a total of three forums (none of them Spamcop) at NVU, Corel, and another geeky one I shouldn't name here. Do I ever look at, or even remember those links like you

mentioned are there? NO, I don't. But if a monthly FAQ shows up, I do remember them, but still ... . Otherwise I don't even see them anymore since they're not my priority. A posted FAQ is

NOT a do-all; it's basic, clear and concice information that, if needed, will clearly point out which path the reader should follow. I mean, even if it's just a "How to Write A Good Post" FAQ, it's still valuable if it's written correctly and with the correct links!

A FAQ's a place for a short, concise intro to the thrills & spills, at least. I've seen lots of talk here that'd look good in a monthly FAQ. Maybe even a FAQ group?

I've a load of "unread" posts that I have every intention of 'stealing' the data from and making a new FAQ entry ..

That, IMO is no longer the right way to do it. That means you're using what OTHERS have written, not what you KNOW, and it's prone to you misunderstanding/misinterpreting and then someone reading it doing the same thing. It becomes second or third-hand knowledge and often the details in it become clouded with someone else's perception of what the structure should be, not yours, even though you attempt to keep it clear.

A logical process will come easier and faster from your own mind, but only if there is a modicum of control in place to either protect you from, or handle, the initial negativity that every attempt, without exception, has been met with to handle this. Everyone bitches but no one wants to help is actually a

truism here for some reason. Maybe that's what makes the WIKI sound enticing, but I don't feel that will work either unless as proposed it's worked on by invitation only and there is a careful control in place to weed out irrelevancy and opinions from useful facts which belong there. Too many people use too many words, just as I'm doing at this moment, to make points when it could, with some furhter thought and effort, be a LOT shorter and concise than this is.

I'll bet there are (or were?) lurkers around here who would come out, but they are afraid that if they leave out one related point, relavent or not, the thread will turn into an off-their-topic post, so they just don't bother. As soon as a newbie gets hit with that barrage, they're gone, maybe for good. How many new names have appeared in, say, the last month? Very few. It begs the question of whether there are many lurkers left here. The value of the newsgroup, which is information, has been replaced with opinions and verbose musings, maybe in an attempt to make the groups look busier, but it's self-defeating to do that.

Here's another thought: Has anyone here ever even tried to increase "membership" with a membership drive? Lots of people here have websites; do those sites push Spamcop, or do they just have a linked logo?

How many times in the last year has the logo been downloaded? Any of them?

Hmm, there's a thought: I -could- do that on my own personal site and one of the two volunteer sites I manage! Then I could even write my OWN FAQ, and even warn people to not get lost in the negativity they might find here, that there is another greater benefit. I still like my "gentler and kinder" block list spiel about Spamcop's list and other things I perceive as a reality.

But then ... .

but .. time, having to 'rebuild' that data into a FAQ type structure, trying to work to work around the problem of having a perfectly fine step-by-step procedure on exactly how to do "this" but knowing that as soon as it's posted, the first complaint would be that it had nothing to do with the 'exact' issue the viewer was reading it for, as the viewer's problem was spelled "thiis" .. therefore the step-by-step had no bearing on "his/her" specific problem ....

Exactly. And precisely it has to be a "by invitation" effort. The constitution was written by only a few, but for and on behalf of the masses. Every person in the country did not write a piece of it: Representatives did. Not every likes or liked it,

either. "Everyone" cannot simply be allowed input. "everyone" should however be considered, and that means finding the people, of which I think there ARE some here already, who can write on behalf of "everyone". Before someone starts screaming "anarchy", think about it; it's the definition of the processes we live under (he said, trying to be party-less with his words).

But as stated many times over the last couple of years, I have yet to see anyone actually forcing these types of actions to stop ... just the lack of folks getting excited enough to actually get involved and "just do it" (and unfortunately, then have the fortitude to keep on marching while the potshots land all around the effort results)

I think you've already covered, and so have I, the reasons for that. Familiarity with the trees has completely clouded the forest view.

Well, that's been a pretty good set of destructive criticism; I'm afraid, under current situations, I have no positive criticisms to include beyond the little I've already offered. "You can satisfy some of the people some of the time but ... ".

Regards,

Pop

PS - I'm thinking I'm off my soapbox now: I don't usually try to rechew my food so I'll make an attempt to not do that here too.

--

If I said it, I meant it.

Unless you misunderstood me!

Or I mis-spoke!

Moderator note: I stole this from the newgroup version of this topic which has been very active, but I felt that this one was worth the effort to cart over to the forum. A lot of food for thought

Thanks POP