Letter to a robot

[derpyderp]

I tried to send this email to summaries[at]admin.spamcop.net earlier, but it bounced

I am posting it here in hopes that someone can pass this along to the appropriate parties.

Dear robot, all I see below are numbers. I am a human, and not as smart

as robots. You see, I don't have telekinetic powers. I see numbers,

but that tells me nothing. Unless you start acting like a good robot

and providing me with some useful information, like a copy of an email that was

complained about, I must request that you contact your creator and tell

them to fix you, because you are very flawed, and completely useless to us humans.

SpamCop robot wrote:

>> [ SpamCop V1.589 Summary Report ]

>> -- See footer for key to columns and notes about this report --

>>

>> IP_Address Start/Length Trap User Mole Simp Comments

>> RDNS

>>

>> x.x.x.x Aug 9 00h/15 0 1 0 0

>> [ no rdns ]

Do you get my point? If I have 1000 user accounts on a server, and SpamCop says "there have been 15 complaints regarding your server at x.x.x.x, so you've been blocked", what good does that do me? You tell me nothing to help eradicate the issue. Instead, you jump up to "protect" your users of this (dis)service, and proceed to block tons of legitimate email in the process, and very little (yet to even be determined at this point) spam. Your RBL is garbage. Take a lesson from a real RBL such as spamhaus, who does not block legitimate email because someone complained. Since you fail at providing anyone with details, I am going to proceed to forward every single complaint to live people at spamcop requesting more information. Create more work for me, and create more work for yourselves, when all you need to do is clue people in as to what the complaints are about.

[Wazoo]

I tried to send this email to summaries[at]admin.spamcop.net earlier, but it bounced

And you derived this "valid" address from ...?????

I am posting it here in hopes that someone can pass this along to the appropriate parties.

???? A total waste of time at this point. You have not read the FAQ. You ignored all the pointers put in place 'here' suggesting how to "ask a food question" .. what data is needed for us to help you .... and the subject matter already exists in countless existing Topics .... What makes you think you're special?

Do you get my point? If I have 1000 user accounts on a server, and SpamCop says "there have been 15 complaints regarding your server at x.x.x.x, so you've been blocked", what good does that do me?

It's one bit of data. Providing the IP address in question could possibly have led to more data being provided "here" ....

You tell me nothing to help eradicate the issue. Instead, you jump up to "protect" your users of this (dis)service, and proceed to block tons of legitimate email in the process, and very little (yet to even be determined at this point) spam.

Another sign that you have done zero research on the subject, read any other discussions, didn't even take a look at the Start Here - before you make your first Post oitem that was intentionally placed in your way ... You obviously skipped over the Why am I Blocked? Pinned entry (also found within the SpamCop FAQ here) Hint: SpamCop.net cannot block any e-mail ....

Your RBL is garbage. Take a lesson from a real RBL such as spamhaus, who does not block legitimate email because someone complained. Since you fail at providing anyone with details, I am going to proceed to forward every single complaint to live people at spamcop requesting more information. Create more work for me, and create more work for yourselves, when all you need to do is clue people in as to what the complaints are about.

Please take a major hint here .. do your research .... provide specific data if you are actually asking for help ... you want to start hassling "users" via this Forum, you will not do it for very long. Ther are valid contact points, they are available with just a bit of research ... look for something as obvious as "How to Contact ..."

[turetzsr]

...This appears to be a rant rather than an inquiry about the SpamCop Blocking List, so I have moved it from the "SpamCop Blocklist Help" forum to the Lounge. If anyone has a different view, please post a reply here. If another SpamCop Forum Moderator believes differently, they (all) have my consent to move it back.

[dra007]

Obviously a rant misinformed and pointless. True reports have the content of the original spam available with a simple click on a View link.

[derpyderp]

You know what's funny, I did use the "Start Here - before you make your first Post" link. I was directed here:

http://www.spamcop.net/bl.shtml?x.x.x.x

with a link that said:

Information about the reasons for listing (blocking) your mail server (x.x.x.x)

Clicking that link told me literally _nothing_ about why we were being blocked.

We also receive spamcop summary reports, and I personally view each and every single one. What I find odd is that a customer had to inform us that we were being blocked by spamcop before a summary was sent to us stating we were blocked. Oh wait, we never RECEIVED a summary report stating we were blocked. We did, however, receive the one stating the server had been delisted.

No, I really don't care to get "help" from these forums at all. I've dealt with spamcop before, emailing a suppotr engineer one on one to resolve issues previously. I've been down that path, and am quite well aware of how to go about doing so. My point here is that spamcop is quick to instate a block (according to the link I mention above, there were less than TEN complaints. 50 or so, I could understand), and they provide absolutely NO information whatsoever on why the blovk was instated. Ok, fine, the way the service works is that the provider much contact spamcop to work out the issue. Perhaps if spamcop responded in a more timely fashion this wouldn't be as big of a deal. However, it is largely a waste of time on the behalf of the provider (AND spamcop I would think) to have to work one on one with someone every time they decide to block someone (and not notify them, for a handful of complaints which may or may not even be VALID inthe first place). That is the point of my rant. I don't particularly care for spamcop for this very reason. It blocks legitimate email for no other reason than it can. It spamcop really gave a damn about spam, they would at least make an effort to inform people of why they are being blocked. For the spamvertised URL summaries, the URL and entire email is included. That's absolutely wonderful. We can immediately:

1. Pinpoint the server

2. Identify the user

3. Examine the message to see if it's CAN spam compliant or not (unsubscribe link, a clear statement that an advertisement is contained within, etc).

We jump on these immediately. However, why spamcop insists on forcing the provider to waste their time contacting them when all they need to do is forward even just 1 email that was complained about is beyond me. Just earlier today we received a complaint about a customer's mailing list, because the user that signed up decided they didn't want to be on the list anymore, and instead of clicking the "unsubscribe" link at the bottom (which we happily did for them, and replied to spamcop letting them know), the user complained about it being spam. So, less than 10 people potentially, who signed up for someone's CAN spam compliant, double opt in mailing list can complain and block potentially thousands of people from communicating. Sure, it's not spamcop's fault that anyone chooses to use their RBL, but it sure could be run a LOT better with much greater efficiency if they would simply provide something, ANYTHING about why people are complaining, let alone informing those who make the effort to obtain their summaries that they have been blocked. Al the summaries are are random servers with some numbers after them. Yes, I followed all available links, and found nothing, not 1 iota of information about why were blocked. Rather, I found a list of "it could be this, or it could be this, or it could be this". That helps no one.

[Farelf]

... No, I really don't care to get "help" from these forums at all. I've dealt with spamcop before, emailing a suppotr engineer one on one to resolve issues previously. I've been down that path, and am quite well aware of how to go about doing so. ...

"We" have no special access to SC staff. If you are "well aware of how to go about" it, suggest you go to it. You will find directions on how to contact SC in numerous places, including HERE. There are other links to that info in the FAQs. That you couldn't find any of them may mean we need to scatter a few more about, do you think?

"These forums" are manned by just ordinary folk, not SC employees. The "regulars" nevertheless have some sort of motivation to assist those who want help (and, collectively, manage to do some good from time to time). Feel free to rant, but just what impact do you think you have? Bloody strange way to conduct business, it seems to me.

[StevenUnderwood]

Quick and simple answer since you seem to refuse to read much.

You are getting that summary because you requested it in your spamcop ISP account. Go there to get more information.

It is possible your IP address reports are being sent to another address (your providers abuse address, likely). Again, the IP address would turn that information up for you. That IP address would also let us help interpret the data available at the: http://www.spamcop.net/bl.shtml?x.x.x.x site

[derpyderp]

Quick and simple answer since you seem to refuse to read much.

You are getting that summary because you requested it in your spamcop ISP account. Go there to get more information.

And you say I refuse to read much. Here, I'll make it more clear for you in my native language (English):

I am quite well aware of why I receive the spamcop summary reports. The summary reports are 100% useless, and are not even fit to waste the bandwidth they do. They contain servers, and some numbers regarding complaints. You lack the ability to understand my point, which is that without knowing WHY someone is complaining, there is little we can do to rectify the issue in a timely fashion when spamcop decides to push the "block" button. For less than 10 complaints. That aren't even verified as being spam anyway (to our knowledge). This is not a good way to conduct business in my opinion.

"These forums" are manned by just ordinary folk, not SC employees. The "regulars" nevertheless have some sort of motivation to assist those who want help (and, collectively, manage to do some good from time to time). Feel free to rant, but just what impact are you hoping to have? Bloody strange way to conduct business, it seems to me.

And I'm sure spamcop appreciates all the time the community spends assisting to resolve an issue that, had spamcop taken 2 seconds to forward an example complaint for, would have been resolved ages ago. I appreciate the anti spam movement on all fronts. I pray for the day okopipi can continue where bluesecurity left off, or at least hope that someone can utilize an anonymous network like tor to stick it back to the spammers like bluesecurity did. However, spamcop wastes your time, my time, my customer's time, and their own time by being nebulous in their so called "reports".

[dra007]

I think it is you who refuses to listen, you are blocked because your server is spewing spam. Give us the IP in question and we will tell you exactly the subject line in those reports. Information which should also be available to you. So your rant is rather pointless.

[derpyderp]

I think it is you who refuses to listen, you are blocked because your server is spewing spam. Give us the IP in question and we will tell you exactly the subject line in those reports. Information which should also be available to you. So your rant is rather pointless.

You are convinced the server is "spewing spam". I am not. I run these servers and am quite well aware of what the:

1. email logs look like, and

2. what the queue looks like

I am also well aware that "spam", as spamcop themselves would label it, could be:

A. a CAN spam compliant newsletter that someone signed up for, and instead of using their head and clicking the unsubscribe link, they report it as spam to get removed. Does this make it spam? No, it does not.

B. Bounced email messages sent to someone - a spammer - as a result of using an email address (valid or otherwise) that has the From: field set to someone from one of our servers. Does this make it spam? It's possible. Does it mean that it came from our network/server? No, it does not.

I looked at all the email in the queue earlier after we were blocked (~1800 messages), as well as the mail logs over the past few days. My due diligence and my experience show me nothing about spam being sent from the server. So, although you are set in your opinion that our server was spewing spam (yet you, like us, have absolutely NO evidence of this, which spamcrap does yet withholds from us before blocking, and having never laid a finger on our server you feel you are qualified to make that assumption), I beg to differ. Congrats on being another arrogant spamcop lackey who doesn't sound like he/she has the first clue about administering a server, but instead joins the spamcop sheeple brigade unquestionably declaring, "if spamcop says it's spam (less than TEN complaints HAHAHA oh my), it MUST be spam!" Nice work chief. That's my time here. My piece has been spoken a long time ago, most of the rest of my cruft was just re explaining myself over and over. I wouldn't recommend this service to anyone, not in its current state (intentionally withholding information from the service providers while blocking their servers, tsk tsk). I'm done here.

[Wazoo]

Whatever .. without an IP address being offered up, this "discussion" is headed for closing .. there is no sense in allowing so many folks to waste so much time.

[StevenUnderwood]

You are convinced the server is "spewing spam". I am not. I run these servers and am quite well aware of what the:

1. email logs look like, and

2. what the queue looks like

spam can come from other than your mail server software. It has happened many times here before, infected servers do happen.

A. a CAN spam compliant newsletter that someone signed up for, and instead of using their head and clicking the unsubscribe link, they report it as spam to get removed. Does this make it spam? No, it does not.

It is also possible that the person who owned the address when it was signed up for has dropped the address and someone else (not the person who subscribed) has received this email without requesting it. Some people know you should never unsubscribe from a message you did not subscribe to because it will only add you to more spammer lists (even ones that are CAN spam compliant, very telling name, btw). If you can prove a reported email was requested, there are sanctions against the reporter.

B. Bounced email messages sent to someone - a spammer - as a result of using an email address (valid or otherwise) that has the From: field set to someone from one of our servers. Does this make it spam? It's possible. Does it mean that it came from our network/server? No, it does not.

The bounce IS the spam. The person receiving the bounce never sent the original and so should not be receiving the bounce. And the bounce DID come from your server.

As stated, viruses and spyware use their own SMTP enginges. If you would provide the IP address, we may be able to provide you some of the evidence you are requesting. If the TEN complaints were all to spamtraps (addresses that should never receive ANY email) then that IP is probably distributing messages to millions of other addresses that also never requested them. You are correct we have no evidence because you are holding the key to that information.

If your domain information is configured properly, you (or your ISP) will get every report from a real person that is adding to the blocklist. Your summary report also tells you how many MOLE reporters reported messages from your server that were NOT added to the blocklist. Your posted summary report says you (or your provider) received one report (including the source). We could help you get that information or help you figure out why you did not get that information, if you would provide the server IP. But since you are gone (your ghost seems to be about, however), we will never be able to fix it if it is broken.