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QUOTE(Miss Betsy [at] Jul 26 2004, 02:35 PM)

I agree.  It should be spamcop reporters help and Why Am I blocked Help.

Miss Betsy

*

*SpamCop Blocklist Help

*A forum to help those who have had their IP address blocked by the SpamCop dnsBL - Please read the Why Am I Blocked FAQ before posting here

???? this doesn't cover it?

Just a generic support for two help forums plus the email forums. I didn't go back to see how the prototype was worded. I still haven't but if the 'spamcop user help' is not entitled 'SpamCop Reporter Help' then perhaps it ought to be - a lot of people from the email side seem to use 'spamcop help' - not realizing there are some who don't use the email service. Then, of course, the other should be 'SpamCop Email Service Help.'

Also, Ellen's post about the Aussie web site would fit in the forum proposed for various recommended programs, etc., wouldn't it? For right now, why not pin it in the Lounge? I saw JeffG was here not too long ago - he could have changed his 'welcome to the Lounge' pinned post. Or perhaps you could pin a post saying what the Lounge is being used for at the moment and unpin his?

Is there an emoticon for 'hands on hips' mode? People know that when I have my hands on my hips, it generally means trouble. I am afraid if I could be at a spamcop admin meeting that my hands would definitely be on my hips about the forum changes and the web page changes that didn't happen. You are soooooooo patient, Wazoo!

Miss Betsy

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<snippety snip>

Wazoo, you are doing a great job!

13979[/snapback]

Whoa .. where the heck did that come from?!?!?!?1

Thanks <g>

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Just a generic support for two help forums plus the email forums.  I didn't go back to see how the prototype was worded.  I still haven't but if the 'spamcop user help' is not entitled 'SpamCop Reporter Help' then perhaps it ought to be - a lot of people from the email side seem to use 'spamcop help' - not realizing there are some who don't use the email service.   Then, of course, the other should be 'SpamCop Email Service Help.'

I've brought this up a number of times, but .... where things are a bit strange is that there are a number of links (and strangely, I'm still finding some that I'd never seen before) that bring users into the Forums at a "sub-level" ... First brought to my attention when after posting something to Announcements to make sure all would trip over it, but having questions asked within the hour ... user had followed a "Help" link, which brought him/her directly into Help, such that Help was the only known Forum (I hope this is making sense) .... My basic request at this point is to have allllll these links bring folks to the top level of the Forums, but ....

Also, Ellen's post about the Aussie web site would fit in the forum proposed for various recommended programs, etc., wouldn't it?  For right now, why not pin it in the Lounge?

Data is already available on Marjolein's web site, and have added that to the web-FAQ I'm working on.

I saw JeffG was here not too long ago - he could have changed his 'welcome to the Lounge' pinned post.  Or perhaps you could pin a post saying what the Lounge is being used for at the moment and unpin his?

JeffG has also became Jeff G. ... said something about being gone for so long, he didn't want to jump in without doing a whole catch-up ... so I don't think he's yet logged on with the Moderator functions ... as far as modifying the Welcome to the Lounge post . there's some kind of strange karma going on there ... I've made three attempts at modifying that post and something strange has happened here ... one time frequncy settings went nuts to the monitor, so couldn't read/see a thing but really kewl colors and patterns <g> .... next time, a flat out system locked moment that lasted until the Reset button was mashed .... third time, a reboot out of nowhere .... not sure what kind of voodoo JeffG put on that post, but ..... <g>

Is there an emoticon for 'hands on hips' mode?  People know that when I have my hands on my hips, it generally means trouble.  I am afraid if I could be at a spamcop admin meeting that my hands would definitely be on my hips about the forum changes and the web page changes that didn't happen.  You are soooooooo patient, Wazoo!

Can only refer back to those wonderful years of Reearch & Development ... that strange complexity of the daily crisis after crisis, but actual systems taking from 5 to 20 years to make it from a Required Operation Capability document to actually putting something into the field. Let's just say that there are many levels of patience, frustration, anger, motivation, attitude ... maybe it's easier to state that I have lots of distractions <g>

For instance, I'm sitting here writing nice things to the dear Miss Betsy (and whoever else that spends the time to delve this far into yet another one of my too long posts) ... However, I'm also on call, waiting for either a phone call or a scream, at which point I'm to head on down the street in "bouncer" mode, based on whether or not a situation resolves itself or not down there in a peaceable fashion .... or midnight comes, as that's the deadline ....

Hope that helps a bit <g>

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there are a number of links that bring users into the Forums at a "sub-level"

(snip)

My basic request at this point is to have allllll these links bring folks to the top level of the Forums, but ....

14353[/snapback]

The "Help" page at both "www.spamcop.net" and "mailsc.spamcop.net" has these links:

General help

If you are having trouble using SpamCop, if you have been listed on the SpamCop blocking list or are having trouble using the list, post here.

Email help

If you have a spamcop.net email account and need help, post here.

Mailhosts System

If you are having problems specifically related to the new Mailhosts verification system, post here.

Those will need to be changed if you 1) want people to see all the forums and the announcements on the way in, or 2) if the forums get reorganized, renamed, divided, etc.

Another problem with people not seeing the Announcements forum is that it's tempting for them to click on the second link in the level navigation bar near the top of the page, like this:

SpamCop Discussion > SpamCop Discussions > SpamCop Lounge

It would be better if the middle level wasn't there, but I think that's an issue with the Invision system of forums/subforums, etc., and probably won't change.

What urgently needs changing is to eliminate the excessive amount of pinned items at the top of each forum but I'm sure that will soon be the result of your efforts.

Thanks for your work to make this a better system.

dt

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Just a post to get this thing back wothin the 30-day window for wxposure ... still hoping that JT will agree to some of the changes eventually ...

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Just a post to get this thing back within the 30-day window for wxposure ... still hoping that JT will agree to some of the changes eventually ...

OK, here's another "bump" for this topic. I think that we need to have a concise, prioritized summary of what changes need to be made. I confess not to have scrutinzed this entire thread to see if it's in there somewhere, but I'll do that as soon as I have time.

DT

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Given the number of issues raised here, maybe it's a good time to open a NEW :: Suggestions and Comments :: FORUM category. That would also be a good place for dumping the rants on SpamCop inadequacies we see every so often in the wrong places!

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Given the number of issues raised here, maybe it's a good time to open a NEW :: Suggestions and Comments :: FORUM category. That would also be a good place for dumping the rants on SpamCop inadequacies we see every so often in the wrong places!

17807[/snapback]

Actually this is already included in the original discussion about changing the forum configueration. This thread has become more of a FAQ modification thread.

See post #7 http://forum.spamcop.net/forums/index.php?...indpost&p=10664

See also Suggestion for the Forum's main page., add line breaks in the descriptions

Not on the point but possibly related Forums, Newsgroups, Netiquette, Rules, Etc., was "Finding/using Upstreams & Adjacencies to report

I am afraid that the general feeling is that the changes are wonderful dreams but to make them a reality is probably nothing more than a pipe dream at this time. So we learn to live with what we do have.

Thanks to Wazoo who found a way to address the FAQ problem. That dream has become a reality!!!!!! :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

PS did you know that there is a limit to how may smilies can be posted?

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Based on a recent spate of "enhancement" requests, I'm dropping a note to the "powers that be" folks and asking again for something to happen. What I see right now is that there isn't a "place" to put these requests so that they would stand alone (as compared to being tossed in amongst all the other discussions within the Lounge Forum) And that the suggested enhancements aren't all the same (though the condirmation e-mails do seem to top the list), creating a single Topic of "Enhancements/Suggestions" that would contain all input would seem to end up being pretty danged confusing.

Yet another continuing 'issue' is that the FAQ entry http://www.spamcop.net/fom-serve/cache/4.html has a link that drops folks directly into the Help Forum here. Once again, this places a user in the position of not seeing the Announcements Forum, wouldn't know about the Lounge area, and if the Forum structure would get expanded, there'd be no indication of a separate Enhancements Forum.

Anyway, as the first anniversary of this support Forum is coming up, and noting that this specific thing was started about 6 months ago, I'm going to try again.

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Yet another continuing 'issue' is that the FAQ entry http://www.spamcop.net/fom-serve/cache/4.html has a link that drops folks directly into the Help Forum here.  Once again, this places a user in the position of not seeing the Announcements Forum, wouldn't know about the Lounge area, and if the Forum structure would get expanded, there'd be no indication of a separate Enhancements Forum.

21473[/snapback]

How about a Pinned Topic in each SpamCop Forum that states the following?

Title: This is not the only SpamCop Forum

Subtitle: despite appearances to the contrary

Body: To see all of the SpamCop Forums, please click SpamCop Discussion here or near the top left corner of this page. You can also click the big blue INVISION POWER BOARD bar at the top of this page for the same effect.

Thanks!

Edited by Jeff G.

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OK, here's another "bump" for this topic. I think that we need to have a concise, prioritized summary of what changes need to be made. I confess not to have scrutinzed this entire thread to see if it's in there somewhere, but I'll do that as soon as I have time.

DT

17804[/snapback]

Yes, I've always said I'll do pretty much whatever you guys want. It just isn't obvious to me from skimming these posts exactly what would be most helpful. What do you want to do?

JT

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For one thing, that the spamcop page which brings you to the forums takes you to the main forum where you can see the announcements, and all the different places to ask (discuss) questions.

IOW

Ask other users for help with Mailhosts, Reporting troubleshooting, help in understanding why 'your' email has been blocked, and General Discussion of spam/spam fighting in the web based bulletin boards or in the Newsgroups.  Email service Help is exclusively in the web based forum  link to email forum.

Web-based Bulletin Boards Index of all forums

Please read the 'Pinned' items at the top of each bulletin board before posting.

Newsgroups

Follow the link to launch and subscribe to a newsgroup. Alternatively, use the WebTV links to launch that format.  If the links above don't work for you, you can try configuring your news reader manually: NNTP news server: news.spamcop.net

Newsgroup Posting Rules

    * No spam. Please do not post copies of spam or other commercials except in the spamcop.spam group specifically designated for it. SpamCop provides "tracking URL"s for posting spam samples. Please use them.

    * Limit quoting. Please avoid quoting in threads unnecessarily.

Security note: Reading the messages in the forum is perfectly safe; however, if you post to the NNTP groups, your email address will be revealed. You might want to consider configuring your software with a false email address. Please use "nobody[at]devnull.spamcop.net" if you use a fake address. These newsgroups feed to and from the global usenet network, so posts will show up in search systems and around the globe.

That the Lounge be redescribed as being that which is not Email Help or Reporting Help or Mailhosts Help and is especially for discussions about spam, spamfighting, and spamcop.

That an additional forum be established for 'feature' requests (so that deputies can look at them at their leisure). And that the troubleshooting for reporting accounts and 'Why am I blocked' are divided into two forums

Since Wazoo has worked on the FAQ, perhaps nothing more needs to be done. I am sure that he could tell you precisely what he thinks would be a good idea.

Miss Betsy

Edited by Miss Betsy

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For one thing, that the spamcop page which brings you to the forums takes you to the main forum where you can see the announcements, and all the different places to ask (discuss) questions.

That one I can't touch. I believe Courtney has moved on to other things, RW says that he's backed off on a lot of FAQ stuff, now being a bit more complicated with some added legal approval stuff, so not sure who's going to handle all those (needed) changes.

Since Wazoo has worked on the FAQ, perhaps nothing more needs to be done.  I am sure that he could tell you precisely what he thinks would be a good idea.

Thanks for your confidence, but .... not sure I'm at the same level <g>

On the other hand, just read an e-mail from JT ... oh man, you won't believe the trouble I'm in now <g> Best advice at this point ... hold on, the ride may be bumpy!

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just read an e-mail from JT ... oh man, you won't believe the trouble I'm in now <g>  Best advice at this point ... hold on, the ride may be bumpy!

21582[/snapback]

Looks smooth so far. :)

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Thanks, JT, for finally getting the descriptions to fit the use of the forums!

I still think that a separate forum for "Why am I blocked?" would be a good idea, but maybe there are enough forums now.

<aside> Come to think of it, I haven't seen as many "Why am I blocked" posts lately. Perhaps more people are reading the FAQ? I should have kept track of the numbers who read it<aside>

Miss Betsy

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On the other hand, just read an e-mail from JT ... oh man, you won't believe the trouble I'm in now <g>  Best advice at this point ... hold on, the ride may be bumpy!

21582[/snapback]

Well I see you have been very busy resorting the entire forum into the new structure. Thank you for all your hard work.

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Thanks, JT, for finally getting the descriptions to fit the use of the forums!

I still think that a separate forum for "Why am I blocked?" would be a good idea, but maybe there are enough forums now.

I'm not sure what's going on here ... No, I didn't use "Why am I Blocked?" for the Title, but .... I am moving those previous discussions into the new Forum section ...

You mention descriptions, but .. did you notice the Titles also? <g>

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Dang, about a year and a half later ... have now added almost all that was conjectured in this ancient Topic .... yet, so much more to do ... war breaking out in the newsgroups yet again about the existence and use of this Forum ....

Some recent dialog ...

"Ken K"  wrote in message

> On Mon, 09 May 2005 16:42:01 -0500, WazoO wrote:

>

> >> What's a good second choice for a phish phighting website ?

> >

> > Yet again, the Forum FAQ has a number of address lists available, to

> > include a direct link to the Anti-Phishing Working Group .... Plain text

> > list of that FAQ entry was posted recently into the three main spamcop

> > newsgroups ... see

> > http://forum.spamcop.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=2238

>

> Damn, Wazoo,   quit touting the forum ...  MANY of us refuse to be

> involved "over there"  when adequate and faster access is here.

>

> Is your sole goal, along with the JeffG simply to troll here to "try" to

> swing those who appreciate nntp over to a slow forum?

On the other hand, it is absurd to keep seeing the same

questions over and over, yet the answers actually exist

in a continually updated document ... (and I'm not even

going to bring up the typical "Google it!" response) I've passed

on JT's offer to even buy some other software to build a

knowledgeable/FAQ thing that many could contribute

to at least three times 'here' with very little response.  Check

the archives for the years of bitching about the www.spamcop.net

FAQ.  The only thing I'm "pushing for" would be more input

to offer answers to even more "Frequently Asked Questions" ..

flush out the "How to Use ...." section

news://news.spamcop.net/spamcop or http://news.spamcop.net/pipermail/spamcop-...May/100508.html for this full thread

eddie asks: Subject: is this board alive?

or not?

Mike E responds to JeffG:

>>> "Jeff G."

>>>> Mike Easter wrote:

>>>>> There are both lurkers and posters around here I say.

>>>>

>>>> However, nobody posted for 12 days until eddie showed up.

> In contrast, the SpamCop Email System & Accounts Forum at

> http://forum.spamcop.net/forums/index.php?showforum=4 has had 772

> Topics (posts) and 4268 Replies in the past ~465 days since its first

> Topic on 25th January 2004, an average of 1.7 Topics/day and 9.2

> Replies/day.

That's partly because this is a stealth or ghost or hidden newsgroup,

hidden from public view so that you have to have a secret passkey to get

in.

There are no links to it anywhere, including the page that you can dig

down into to find the nntp groups.  The faq pages point only to the

forum;  the nntp pages don't include .help or .mail and there are

periodic 'forays' into the secret nntp groups to drag participants to

the webforum kicking and screaming whether they want to go or not.

Mike E responds to Wazoo:

WazoO wrote:

> "Mike Easter"

>> That's partly because this is a stealth or ghost or hidden newsgroup,

>> hidden from public view so that you have to have a secret passkey to

>> get in.

> Take a (fresh) look at http://forum.spamcop.net/forums/

> I may change it around a bit more, but ...???

That link is the front page to the forums, which contains 27252 posts in

11 subforums -- was there something specific in one of its parts you

wanted me to look at?

Oh, wait.  Maybe you are talking about the very top section:

SPAMCOP HOME · ORIGINAL FAQ · FORUM FAQ · SPAMCOP NEWSGROUPS

in which the newsgroups one is a link to news://news.spamcop.net/

Or, did you mean something else?

> It's been over a year since JT made his declaration, so

> not sure why there's all the aggravation.  For the

> 'average' user, your described "secret nntp groups"

> should now be visible (even to the point of confusing

> some folks over which group does what ...)

IMO, JT's 'declaration' could've been that it was his intention to only

personally do any of his posting to the forum.  The business of removing

any reference on this page http://www.spamcop.net/help.shtml in the

section Newsgroups is what makes the newsgroups .help and .mail into

stealth newsgroups.  There's nothing wrong with having .routing and

.test and control and control.cancel be stealthed, but stealthing .help

and mail isn't understandable to me.  Just because JT would rather only

attend the forum doesn't mean that everyone else should only attend the

forum.

It is one thing to 'believe' that the forums' existence would or should

stamp out the need for nntp newsgroups, but structuring things so as to

make it a self-fulfilling prophesy seems self-centered or something.

Maybe I just don't understand the thinking correctly.  I understand that

the forum has advantages.  I also understand that the nntp interaction

has advantages.  Maybe that's the part that JT doesn't understand or

agree with or something.

Wazoo responds:

> WazoO wrote:

> > "Mike Easter"

>

> > Take a (fresh) look at http://forum.spamcop.net/forums/

> > I may change it around a bit more, but ...???

>

> Oh, wait.  Maybe you are talking about the very top section:

>

> SPAMCOP HOME · ORIGINAL FAQ · FORUM FAQ · SPAMCOP NEWSGROUPS

> in which the newsgroups one is a link to news://news.spamcop.net/

> Or, did you mean something else?

Still tinkering ... But yes, that was the item of note

> > It's been over a year since JT made his declaration, so

> > not sure why there's all the aggravation.  For the

>

> IMO, JT's 'declaration' could've been that it was his intention to only

> personally do any of his posting to the forum.  The business of removing

It all starts back with

http://news.spamcop.net/pipermail/spamcop-...ary/071447.html

Not sure why you'd want to start that battle all over again

dialog goes on ... news://news.spamcop.net/spamcop.mail or http://news.spamcop.net/pipermail/spamcop-...May/thread.html for the full thread ...

not trying to reflect badly on anyone here, just pointing out that the ill will that eventually evaporated (?) about a year and a half ago has surfaced again ...

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not trying to reflect badly on anyone here, just pointing out that the ill will that eventually evaporated (?) about a year and a half ago has surfaced again ...

IMO the ill will never evaporated at all, but wasn't visible because noone asked. There have been many improvements to the web based forums since I last checked them out, so I'm going to give them a shot for a while.

I'm sure part of it is that people used to NNTP (In particular used to thier NNTP clients) do not see the web forums as offering anything of value over the NNTP groups. (save for more participation) This is of course a matter of opinion.

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