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Inbox Reordering / Renumbering by itself


Tommy
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When using Spamcop mail, some messages tend to "float" to the top of my inbox constantly. If I order the display by message number, these messages will ALWAYS be the most recent, the highest number, when the messages are ordered by number. (I avoid displaying messages by date because I frequently receive messages from folks with their clocks set wrong, and if the message says it came in 1969 I may NEVER see it as new!)

At the end of every month I copy the contents of my Inbox and Sent-Mail to an archive folder, and I believe that usually cures the problem for awhile. We're 20 days into the month, however, and I'm seeing messages from three and six days ago marked as the most recent. They also get renumbered in Thunderbird, despite the numbers being different (Thunderbird's message numbers are much larger).

I can't be certain whether the problem is a bug in Horde IMP, or in Mozilla Thunderbird, because I use both, usually at the same time (via the magic of IMAP). I have the spam-handling features of Thunderbird turned OFF because I've had trouble with it randomly becoming over-aggressive in the past.

Has anyone else seen this? Is there a setting somewhere I'm missing? Any ideas for tracking this down?

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I believe this same issue is actually being talked to in message-ids have changed

A bit confusing as that Topic started based on the use of VER, which actually users the (IronPort) Reporting system servers in California to then talk to the (CESMail) e-mail servers in Georgia .. then tossing the sesults onto 'your' screen. However, that discussion did then branch out to including IMAP connections.

As I said, I have been 'fighting' this for a while, but due to the lack of anyone else asking about it, I just went with that it was yet another configuration issue I had not resolved 'here' .... the same concept I have to offer up to others at times in here .... if there's no one else complaining about it, it would seem to be 'your' system / connection that's bad ..... and in this case, I was the only one with the issue .... thanks for chiming in .....

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From: "Wazoo"

To: "JT"

Cc: "trevorb"

Subject: Fw: Message-ID numbers

Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 15:19:26 -0500

Not sure if it's getting worse or that folks are just getting around to complaining ....

Original issue brought up in;

message-ids have changed

http://forum.spamcop.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=8709

appears to be the same issue;

Inbox Reordering / Renumbering by itself

http://forum.spamcop.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=8736

possible connection;

IE7 Crashes every time I quit SC Webmail

http://forum.spamcop.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=8735

----- Original Message -----

From: "Wazoo"

To: "JT"

Cc: "trevorb"

Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2007 1:42 PM

Subject: Message-ID numbers

> http://forum.spamcop.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=8709

> started out as yet another issue with the VER interface .... now

> expanded to include IMAP connections.

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Thanks for the rundown of possibly related issues. I have not seen trouble with the VER nor with reporting spam from Horde IMP's held mail folder. (It's been a LONG time since I've seen the "Message IDs have Changed" error in VER, but I don't use it much anymore -- when I did it was usually because I had moved or deleted items before reporting.)

HOWEVER I keep my held-mail folder completely empty as much as I can, and the self-renumbering issue seems to bite me only when the folder has mail that's been sitting around for a few weeks. It may or may not be due to the number of messages or the size of the messages. Since a few others are seeing possibly related issues, I'm going to start to think it's NOT my overly complex arrangement (Thunderbird and Horde IMP clients from different machines, USUALLY not different machines at the same time, but sometimes). My situation has not changed in a couple of years, though the client versions HAVE (Thunderbird new versions and Horde new versions). So I can't rule out a bug in an email client.

I DO have an excessive number of messages in my archive folders -- about six months ago I copied them from spamcop to a local server but never got around to deleting them from spamcop because ... well I don't have a good excuse. Lazy. Server issues here. whatever.

Sometime in the next few days I'll check my backup copy then try a mass deletion of archived messages, and see what the message IDs do.

If someone has a "definitive" way of inspecting IMAP message ID numbers, I might be able to do some more diagnosis -- I suspect the five-digit message ID number in Thunderbird might be closer to the "truth" than the three or four digit number in Horde IMP. I don't know how those numbers relate to the VER numbers -- I haven't compared.

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One of my last Army job titles included the words "systems analyst" (so much more grandios than just "electronics technician" .... places I was assigned to had equipment I'd never seen before (or since) .. so part of my standard operating procedure when called upon to "fix" something was to sit down and have the system operator sit down and walk me through how the stuff was used and hopefully get a demonstration of what happened when things worked. Then try to apply what I did know from before learned while working on other things, what I had just learned about 'this' system / piece of equipment, hopefully grab some applicable documentation, and start working it out.

In this case, the Horde/IMP FAQ list is woefully incomplete and out of date. I have a hard time keeping up with the Forums, newslists, bulletins, etc. just to keep up on the things I am responsible for, so I've not jumped into signing up for Horde's mailing-list .. and off the top of my head, I don't recall that they have a searchable archive of old traffic .... I haven't had a spamcop.net e-mail account for that long (I may be lying about that ???? don't recall now just hopw long I've had one) .. but I also don't use it like most folks ... no filtering, no reporting, etc. So all I've really got to go on is the stream of user's asking questions, reading the replies from those that know, and then passing on what I've learned.

In this case, as I've stated, I was under the impression that it was "just me" .... my prime development system (Win-98SE) fried a while back. I pulled some junk together and have been trying to bring a Win-XP-Pro system up to somewhere close to being as functional as that 98 machine was .... been a few months, and I'm a long way from where I once was .... applications, tools, tweaks, hacks, etc.

Anyway, specifics to match, expand, differentiate your descriptions ...

OE6 - SC Held Folder finally quits dancing. I handle all the new stuff, resulting in "0" new e-mails .... move up to the InBox, handle stuff there .... some items re-marked as unread, as I need to do something else to work up a reply ... move onto doing something else .... sometimes it seems like just a few seconds later, get the chime and 'new-mail' indicator at the bottom of the screen .. pull OE to the front ... numbers seem the same ... However, ....

Hit the Held folder ... list of e-mail Subject lines starts in to dancing .... 'number' of new e-mails jumps between a couple of different numbers ... scroll up a screen or two and can get to a spot where all the activity is happening 'below' therefore not visible .... go to the Inbox, and that screen is doing the dance, also including ringing the bell to announce the new e-mail ... which is part of the dancing crap .. you can see the Bold text, which is then replace by one of the 'already read' lines, which is then replaced by some Bold text ... over and over and over, with the bell rung everytime that 'new/Bold' item shows up at the bottom of that list ...

Eventually, I'll go back and hit the Held folder, everything is calm and peaceful ... however, the view is strange in that the 'new' e-mail is mixed in among the 'already read' e-mail. Sort order is on the "Received" column ... SOMETIMES .... just checked now, and amazingly enough 9 more new e-mails, hit the Held folder icon, all 9 end up sitting right at the bottom of the list, cool, calm and collected .... (why not? it knows I'm complaining at the moment <g>)

So here we are ... I've exposed my problem, several other folks have expressed theirs, and the catch is ... the described symptoms don't seem to be the same, the displayed results are kind of similar. In this case, at this point, I just tried to pull together the similarities, pass on that data to those that are responsible for those things, and ....?????

All I can say .. those folks have "been here" ... so they "know about it" ...

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I've exposed my problem, several other folks have expressed theirs, and the catch is ... the described symptoms don't seem to be the same, the displayed results are kind of similar.

I agree they sound like they could be related. Now that I think about it, I have also seen strange behavior with my held-mail folder -- I will report 20-40 messages, and then there will be 2-3 more "new" ones, which I will report, only to see 2-3 more "new" ones. I know it's not impossible, but most of my incoming messages are POP retrieved from another server, so they tend to come in discrete batches every 20 minutes. It seems unlikely I would be reporting just as new stuff is coming in, at least as much as I see it.

Just now I was reporting the first block of mail for the day, and saw the "report-all then couple messages appear" behavior, and then switched to VER to full-report one of the bank phishing messages and when I tried to quick-report a "new" message I got

Database error submitting spam for reporting.

Moved message 133602 to trash

and when it finished, there were FEWER new messages waiting to be reported. so there's SOMETHING weird going on...

update -- it's happening a LOT right now in VER -- apparently I can't reliably quick-report from there until it settles

Submitted message 133613 for reporting

Moved message 133613 to trash

Submitted message 133614 for reporting

Moved message 133614 to trash

Message-ids have changed, cannot alter 133615

Edited by Tommy
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As a test, I disabled our IMAP proxy server that is used by Webmail to speed up mailbox accesses. We aren't sure if the proxy server is causing problems, but it's one of the top contenders. Please keep an eye out and report back here if the problem still exists. Also, note that this only affects Webmail and not VER or any external e-mail client.

-Trevor

This comment is also posted here:

message-ids have changed

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Problem still exists from here. Also just as random. Read the above post, brought OE to the front, new e-mail being shown in the Held Folder, went there, saw new e-mail interspresed with previously-read e-mail, but the display was 'calm' ..... Selected InBox, also had new traffic there, at the bottom of the list as expected .... slid up and checked ISP's InBox .... re-selected the SC Helmail folder .... back to the dancing list ....

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Problem still exists from here. Also just as random.

still a problem here, too. At first I was seeing different behavior (a very odd thing happened in Horde IMP when I first reported spam after the proxy was turned off, but it hasn't reoccurred).

For a few minutes, I thought the messages were staying in the expected order, but as spamcop "quick report" messages come in and my Horde filter moves them to their own folder, the messages are getting scrambled around.

That's one issue we have not discussed -- whether anyone else seeing this behavior is using filters in their email client. I usually try to set up all the automatic filtering in Horde so I don't have to duplicate filtering in my Thunderbird clients on different machines. I'm about to have to go for the day, but later I'll check the Horde filter settings, and maybe try turning some of them off temporarily.

BY THE WAY... I have noticed that the messages that appear newest are NOT the same in Horde or Thunderbird. In other words, in Thunderbird, two or three messages keep floating to the top of the message IDs, but those messages are different from the two or three that are floating to the top in Horde. very odd.

update: I just deleted more than half (about 600) quick-report messages from my quick-report box. They went back to June and I apparently forgot to empty the box.

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That's one issue we have not discussed -- whether anyone else seeing this behavior is using filters in their email client.

No filters in use anywhere at the moment.

BY THE WAY... I have noticed that the messages that appear newest are NOT the same in Horde or Thunderbird. In other words, in Thunderbird, two or three messages keep floating to the top of the message IDs, but those messages are different from the two or three that are floating to the top in Horde. very odd.

This probably 'matches' my remarks on the interspersing of new/old e-mail. In my case, the view is sorted by the "Received" line in the IMAP SC folders.

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No filters in use anywhere at the moment.

This probably 'matches' my remarks on the interspersing of new/old e-mail. In my case, the view is sorted by the "Received" line in the IMAP SC folders.

I contributed to the "message ids have changed cannot alter" thread

I noticed long since that SpamCop webmail could not sort into ref # order in some cases.

I now notice that the reference numbers used by VER are incrementing faster than the number of items placed in Held Mail so my statistics on spam are being a little exaggerated.

So Held mail has 78 unseen (but claims 1 to 85 in all, bug reported)

filters delete 2 leaving 76 then VER numbers from 225540 to 225629 so 90

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Starting with that I know nothing ..... using that systems analyst mode, recalling bits, pieces, and factoids from over the years .... my spin on things ....

The VER tool .... you log into the IronPort/SpamCop system .... it then makes contact with JT's system ... there is a database access made .... I'm going with that this is a 'common' database, sorted or filtered based on your user-account data. As you handle some of your data, other folks are handling their data, that database changes structure ....i.e. rows of data disappear as e-mails are deleted.

AT JT's end, the database gets updated, resulting in the sequence numbers associated with each e-mail getting updated. The catch is that there's nothing at your browser's end/view that automatically generates a Refresh .. so you are still looking at the IronPort system in California's last view of the data residing on JT's hardware over in Georgia (and that may not actually be true, again pointing to that nothing triggered a Refresh on your screen ... you may have the only view in the world of that page that once was ..???)

The only way to connect that scenario to the additional issues raised that deal with an IMAP connection (caveated by suggesting that there is only one system actually storing just this data) would be to once again point to a 'common' database, with access/views being sorted/filtered on user-account data. The catch there is that I don't believe the 'single computer' thought is valid, additionally confused/compounded by Trevor's description of yet another system being used as a Proxy to speed up the interface. So at this point, I have to stop conjecturing, as I have no real idea of just how JT has all this stuff set up. Yes, I know the various server names, what's supposed to be running on most of them, but ... the linkages between them, handshaking, priorities, etc. .... not stuff I get to play with ....

Not this this helps anyone, just offering up a possible scenario ... again, based on those things seen typed up over the years ..... the typical 'solution' for the VER issues is to somehow get that screen / view updated ... the IMAP connection simply has me baffled, as a Refresh simply does no good in and of itself .....

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It's gotten 'major' enough that that someone has finally made their way to making a post over in the spamcop.mail newsgroup asking about it. The pointer to the Wiki Newsgroup listing/definition page and the two current Forum discussion links were provided as an 'answer' ....

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None of our test accounts are showing this problem, so it's difficult for us to track the cause. If one of you who is experiencing it gives me permission, I'd like to login to your account and see what is happening. If any of you want to volunteer, e-mail me your username and tell me which messages are displaying wrong and which folder they are in. Send the e-mail to trevorb[at]cesmail.net. Also, please let me know what client(s) you saw the problem in, and how long those specific messages have been doing it. Another piece of information that might help is whether or not they are always displayed wrong, or if some days they seem normal... you might be hitting different IMAP servers every time you login, and it is possible that one of them is buggy.

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From: "Wazoo" (spamcop account)

To: "trevorb"

Subject: test IMAP connection

Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 01:11:32 -0500

X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138

X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3138

Windows XP Professional Service Pack 2 (build 2600)

Outlook Express 6 0 version identified (under Help - About) as;

6.00.2900.2180 (xpsp_sp2_rtm.040803-2158)

Noting that this doesn't actually match the data seen in the header lines .. left in place for this post

Problem start: sometime after the 'new' webmail put into place

Problem seen: as described in the Forum ... say 90%+ of the access attempts

Which Folder: Held / InBox

Forum show you logging in most times from a Mac.

I haven't fired up my iBook in a long while .. long enough that I don't recall whether I set that up as IMAP or POP but leave on server .... so can't compare notes at present as far as Apple Mail goes.

Additional notes here: as the spam attempts come into the newsgroup list/archive pretty much around the clock, there doesn't appear to be a "time" issue ..... I may see a number by the Held folder showing XX number of new e-mails .. the first access to that Folder will download the new messages. However, rarely does it download them all and leave a stationary screen such that this new e-mail can be selected and handled. Thelast batch os spam notifications took over a dozen attempts over an hour or so to get a stable screen. In that last batch, the handling needed boiled down to selecting the batch and marking as read, as all of those had been auto-deleted already (repeat attempts from the same idiot)

However, if you look closely, there is a bit of a delay usually showing between the attempted postings (e-mail received) and the auto-delete notifications .... sometimes it makes sense .. the e-mail, then the deleted notification .. other times however, it may be one e-mail, a half-dozen delete notifications, then a batch of e-mails, then some more delete notifies .... could be a zillion reasons for this, but all unknown from 'here' ....as stated prior, the real confusion factor shows up when the new / unread stuff ends up being mixed into the stuff that had been "marked as read" from the previous connectron.

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Thanks Wazoo for the input.

I will relate what I have discovered prior to the last upgrade - have not tested it since.

If one is using multiple interfaces at the same time, there is a sync problem.

My example, use an OE IMAP interface and the VER interface, both open at the same time.

If messages are move or deleted using IMAP you must do a refresh in the VER interface to register the changes other wise the messages you click on in the VER held mail folder may not actually be there but the check boxes are going to work, the question is just what message are they going to work on. I have seen it reference the message that was move and act upon it in its new folder, and I have seen it act upon a totally different message. I found that doing a simple F5 refresh solved my problem completely. Note, this is prior to the WebMail upgrade. I would need to retest its function today. This probably does not directly relate to the topic, but the experience my help to understand that even though there is only one primary data base, temporary copies of it seem to be created by the various interfaces. Having more than one interface open at a given time makes it possible for the copies to get out of sync with each other and with the master database as each one is working on the assumption that it has full control of the master and is not expecting any changes in the master data base.

See http://forum.spamcop.net/scwik/HowIuseSpamCopDbieL for a more detailed example of how I used the multiple interfaces.

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It seems that our IMAP servers are just flat-out broken when it comes to message numbering. Additionally, the *newer* version of the IMAP software running on the webmail machines is even more broken, and is saying "mailbox contains 50 messages" and then only returning 40... For now, sorting your messages by date is going to be the most reliable way. I'm installing new IMAP software as we speak, and after we do some internal testing we will open it up as a beta service. The first test showed that it is much more sensible when it comes to message numbering, and it is supposedly a lot faster, too.

-Trevor

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Maybe I have not been able to follow this topic so as to understand it, but it seems to me that the bigger issues is the method of numbering that follows a totally different logic between the various systems.

Within Webmail, the numbering system seems to be based on the order that the message was received in a specific folder. Deleting message will automaticly create a renumbering as missing numbers are not permitted within Webmail. Sorting the messages using a different sort key will create out of order numbering as the numbering appears to be locked to the message as long as there is no change in the number of messages in the folder. Deleting messages will create a renumbering of the messages apparently based on the order that they were received into the folder.

IE, if message #2 is moved from one folder to another folder it will become the largest number message in the new folder, if it is moved back to the original folder, it will be renumbered again as the largest number in that folder.

So restated, within WebMail the message number does not relate to a record number, but is simply a listing as to the order the message was received in a given folder.

Now the VER interface uses a different number method that appears to increase each time a message is added to the folder and that number does not appear to change. If the message is moved to another folder or delete the number is deleted. If the message is moved back to the held folder it is given the next larger number in sequence.

I have not experienced any out of ordinary changing of numbering that can not be explain by the above discription of the apparent logic being used.

Anything that moves or deletes messages is going to affect the number function and any change in sort order will affect the sequence of the numbers.

Remember that you can always sort by number in WebMail simply by clicking on the # sign as either newest first or oldest first, based on the order that they were received into that folder, not based on the time stamp of the message itself.

An unknown factor is what if any affect does the use of filters have on the number method.

Filters that are applied after a message is first received into the held mail folder would apparent create missing numbers.

So even though the messages themselves appear to be in a single data base, the number used has no relationship with the message database itself but is solely related to the display interface being use which will always result in differences.

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None of our test accounts are showing this problem, so it's difficult for us to track the cause.

[Oh! I just discovered this thread has been updated. For some reason the forum didn't notify me! Sorry to be out of the loop.]

I see that you're trying different IMAP servers. It's hard to tell whether the problem has been solved yet -- I have not seen it but it doesn't usually happen until I've been working for a few minutes. I have been offline for a couple of days. I will watch carefully and report back.

P.S.: I HAVE been seeing some other strange behavior in Webmail and my Held Mail folder that I have not previously mentioned. It's not exactly germane to THIS thread... and it IS still happening with the new servers. I will check the other topics before posting it.

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[Oh! I just discovered this thread has been updated. For some reason the forum didn't notify me! Sorry to be out of the loop.]

SELECT * FROM <prefix>_tracker where member_id='1394'

trid member_id topic_id start_date last_sent topic_track_type

5068 1394 8396 1185902463 0 delayed

5190 1394 8736 1190311308 0 delayed

UPDATE <prefix>_tracker SET topic_track_type='immediate' member_id='1394'

Based on past issues with other folks, this post should now send you a notification.

I see that you're trying different IMAP servers. It's hard to tell whether the problem has been solved yet

not solved on my screen

P.S.: I HAVE been seeing some other strange behavior in Webmail and my Held Mail folder that I have not previously mentioned. It's not exactly germane to THIS thread... and it IS still happening with the new servers. I will check the other topics before posting it.

There are now several Topics dealing with a number of things not now working .....I have not wanted to "merge" then, as the problem descriptions and issues are so far apart ... yet they all seem to be brought back to the same source by Trevor's posts .. the updating and changes in the installed software on several computers.

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UPDATE <prefix>_tracker SET topic_track_type='immediate' member_id='1394'

Based on past issues with other folks, this post should now send you a notification.

Thanks -- it did send a notice. I gather that means I should not use the "delayed" notification feature. It's a shame because I'd rather not get a notice with EVERY post to a thread.

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Thanks -- it did send a notice. I gather that means I should not use the "delayed" notification feature. It's a shame because I'd rather not get a notice with EVERY post to a thread.
I believe that it will only send one notice for each thread/topic, not one for each posting, at least that is what I am experiencing.
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Thanks -- it did send a notice. I gather that means I should not use the "delayed" notification feature. It's a shame because I'd rather not get a notice with EVERY post to a thread.

Used "correctly" it does work for the most part. The catch is (see the Forum FAQ and an entry or two in the How to use .... Forum) there is an issue brought up "here" repeatedly. The "delayed" feature works for items 'not' replied to while you are still "on-line" (said another way, it works for a [first] reply made to a [subscribed] Topic if it is made long after you logged off) .... If you are still looking somewhere else at the time someone replies to your last (subscribed) post, the system starts to send you a notification, but then notices that "you are still here" .... the application decides to terminate that notify message as you as 'still here' but .. that also trips the flag as far as sending any future notifies against that same Topic. I still believe (though the authors tell me I'm wrong) that the "On-line in the last 10 minutes" thing on the 'front' page also factors into this timing issue .... The "problem" here is that so many posts get replied to so quickly, falling into that on-line plus 10-minutes thing .....

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[to further respond to the off topic sub-thread, I received NO notice of either of the follow-up replies. I'm looking at the times -- After Wazoo changed the subscription, I received the notice of Wazoo's post at 6:09pm, but there was no additional notice after I responded at 6:36pm, dbiel at 6:42pm, and Wazoo at 6:55pm... AH now I see a checkbox below the message "Enable email notification of replies" -- apparently the per-message subscription setting can differ from the thread setting... I guess if I was on this forum all the time I would understand this issue better.]

Back ON topic, however, the Renumbering / Reordering MAY be better. I've only been online briefly the past few days (and that will likely continue for a few more) but the messages don't seem to be reordering quite as aggressively. I just looked carefully in Thunderbird and Horde IMP, and none have reordered in Horde, though some look like they may have reordered yesterday in Thunderbird. Since the earlier notice said Horde is on the new server but external IMAP clients are not, this may explain it.

I will keep watching carefully... I was becoming concerned about the message database's reliability and it seems more "steady" now.

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[to further respond to the off topic sub-thread, I received NO notice of either of the follow-up replies. I'm looking at the times -- After Wazoo changed the subscription, I received the notice of Wazoo's post at 6:09pm, but there was no additional notice after I responded at 6:36pm, dbiel at 6:42pm, and Wazoo at 6:55pm... AH now I see a checkbox below the message "Enable email notification of replies" -- apparently the per-message subscription setting can differ from the thread setting... I guess if I was on this forum all the time I would understand this issue better.]

I know for a fact that you "were on-line" for quite a while during that timeframe ... I even though about posting in my last that you probably would not receive any notification, ..... I can only point out that the setting has changed again, just for this Topic ....

SELECT * FROM <prefix>_tracker where member_id='1394'

trid member_id topic_id start_date last_sent topic_track_type

5218 1394 8776 1191022699 0 immediate

5190 1394 8736 1190311308 0 delayed

I am suspecting that you 'checked the box' in your last post, which used the default setting seen above, changing my database override .... technically, you were already subscrived to 'this' Topic, so you didn't need to 'check the box again' (hit me if I'm way off-base here ... it might be already checked becasue of the 'current' subscription?) but the real 'control' of your subscribed issues would be found under the My Controls - Subscriptions in this case, View Topics .... there you can set this control .... going to leave it as is .. it's been at least three hours since your last post here,

Last Active 30th September 2007 - 08:12 AM

Time is now: 30th September 2007 - 11:49 AM

In theory, the Delayed setting 'should' work ...???? In practice, it did <g>

(data below munged to hide your e-mail)

grep <your registered e-mail address> mail.log

Sep 30 12:33:00 zeta postfix/smtp[10515]: 142EBDC8056: to=<your registered e-mail address>relay=<domain>.mail5.psmtp.com[64.18.5.10], delay=1, status=sent (250 Thanks)

Time differences are based in me being in Iowa and the server being in Georgia ....

Back ON topic, however, the Renumbering / Reordering MAY be better. I've only been online briefly the past few days (and that will likely continue for a few more) but the messages don't seem to be reordering quite as aggressively.

My experience is much different. No issues with databse reliability, i.e. no e-mail lost .... just not readily accessible via the IMAP connection under OE6 .... but again, not trying too hard at messing with it, as I offered that account up for testing. It just makes a bit of a pain to try to handle the attempted spam submittals to the mailing-list/newsgroup archiving tool in a timely fashion. Not wanting to screw any testing parameters by using the web interface, so having to catch the OE display when it's not 'dancing' ....

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